Ashes and Tears
Interviews with Refugees from Burma on Guam

March 2001
Project Maje
3610 NE 70th Ave
Portland OR 97213 USA
maje@hevanet.com
www.projectmaje.org
tel/fax 503-226-2189

"We live in fear with tears and sadness."
               -- a Chin refugee on Guam


Introduction

During the past year, nearly a thousand refugees from Burma have arrived 
on the island of Guam, a United States territory in the Pacific Ocean. 
They are seeking asylum in the US, having fled extraordinary levels of 
persecution in their homeland. Most are from northern Burma, especially 
the Chin State. Forced repatriation of Chin refugees back from India, 
and lack of even the begrudging "welcome" provided by Thailand, from the 
countries bordering northern Burma, had apparently led these northerners 
to take the creative escape route of flying to Guam, which until 
recently allowed people from Burma to visit (for tourism) without a 
visa. Once there they applied for asylum in hopes of reaching the 
mainland US. 

The Guam escape route, now shut down, was an expensive and risky option, 
and it appealed to a particularly desperate population, but those with 
access to the financial resources needed for passports, plane tickets, 
and other arrangements. The result is a refugee population on Guam which 
is not only skewed towards those from especially remote and isolated 
regions of Burma, but which is weighed towards what would ordinarily be 
the elite in those areas. The education level of the Guam asylum-seekers 
is conspicuously high (despite the damage done to the educational system 
by Burma's regime.) Doctors, pastors, student activists, academics, and 
NGO workers are now found stranded on the island, as well as at least 
one elected Member of Parliament and a former Army/Police Lt. Colonel. 
Most can be characterized as political activists, who not only were 
targetted for mistreatment by Burma's military because of their 
ethnicity, religion, or political views, but were actively engaged in a 
variety of ways of resisting that regime. They are risk-takers who fled 
only when they were one step away from arrest or worse. We are 
privileged that they have taken the time to share their experiences and 
knowledge with us in these pages. 

This report consists of interviews with a small cross section of the 
Guam asylum seekers. It is to some extent representative of their 
demographics, in terms of ethnicity and gender. The interviewees have 
given us a great bounty of significant new information and details about 
recent conditions in Burma. Their interviews are presented here verbatim 
and in their entirety, aside from minor editing for clarity and to 
protect interviewees' families and associates back in Burma. Sections 
where the transcripts were edited are indicated by brackets. Some of the 
interviewees' names have been changed or omitted for security purposes; 
others have been included, particularly if their cases have already been 
publicized. The interviews were all conducted on Guam, from March 14 to 
18, by Project Maje's director, Edith T. Mirante. Some were conducted in 
English, others with translation. The word "government" was often used 
to specify the military regime ruling Burma, in the questions and 
answers; it is used for clarity only and is in no way meant to imply 
legitimacy for that utterly illegal dictatorship.

Numerous topics are covered in these 17 interviews. There is front-line 
information about the AIDS epidemic which is making its grim progress 
into the remote mountains of Burma, and the efforts to evade the 
regime's denial about it. There is also news regarding promotion of 
alcohol and drugs to the indigenous people of the northwest, which is 
reminiscent of the tactics employed in the genocide of the Native 
Americans. The interviewees consistently describe the continuation of 
forced labor throughout the year 2000, when most of them had left Burma, 
in obvious contradiction of the regime's claims to have stopped the 
practice. This includes the forced plantation of tea for the military's 
commercial purposes, which was reportedly going on in the Chin State at 
the very time the International Labor Organization was sanctioning the 
regime for using forced labor (and the regime was insisting that it had 
ceased doing so.)

The regime's attempts to humiliate the largely Christian indigenous 
peoples of the north are well described by the Chin and Kachin 
interviewees. In a campaign not unlike that waged by the Chinese 
occupiers against the Buddhists of Tibet, the military overlords of 
Burma go to great lengths to suppress the Christian faith prevalent 
among those northern people. The regime also desecrate cultural remnants 
of Animism, as in their destruction of cemeteries and confiscation of 
the totemic mithun cattle (for fascinating background on the mithun and 
Chin traditions, see "A Ceremonial Ox of India" by Frederick Simoons, 
University of Wisconsin Press, 1968.) All the while, the ruling military 
promulgates its own travesty of the real Buddhism (to which forced 
conversion is a perversion and violence is anathema.) One hopes that in 
the future the Christians of the north will learn that Buddhism is in 
actuality a tolerant faith and that the two great traditions have much 
in common and much to share.

Since the ceasefire arrangement between the Kachin Independence 
Organization and the regime of Burma in the mid-1990s, little has been 
heard about the human rights violations ongoing in the Kachin State. 
This has led some to conclude that "happy days are here again" in that 
formerly war torn area. The Kachin interviewees, however, describe 
conditions which are little better than in the rest of Burma's frontier 
regions. While forced porterage has decreased with the down-scaling of 
army maneuvers, other types of infrastructure forced labor have 
continued, and apparently widened in scope. According to interviewees, 
former Kachin rebel territory was inexorably ceded to the regime's 
troops, and corruption and violent purges took place within the KIO. The 
recent change in leadership may have important implications for the 
balance of power in the Kachin State, which has certainly tilted far 
away from the KIO during the ceasefire period.

The other ethnic army often mentioned in these pages is the Chin 
National Front, a small group which joined the revolution late (post 
1988) and remains in the fight without a ceasefire. Its significance has 
long been as much as an underground information distribution and 
intelligence gathering organization as in its guerrilla raids. The 
widespread network of "secret agents" of the CNF and volunteer civilian 
groups has done much in recent years to expose the plight of the 
previously little known Chin people to the outside world (for background 
on the Chins, see "A Chin Compendium," a 1996 Project Maje report on 
this website, and "All Quiet on the Western Front," a 1997 report by 
Images Asia <images@cm.ksc.co.th>.) 

Some observers feel that if the CNF was not in operation, the regime 
would not be harassing the population in the Chin State so severely. 
Nonetheless, a less than benign interest by the ruling military was 
probably inevitable, given the State's natural resources. While some 
interviewees criticize the neglect of development in the Chin State in 
the past, it should be emphasized that development now in progress, 
including foreign extractive industries, is even more dangerous, in 
terms of environmental havoc, forced labor, and other exploitation, 
under present conditions. The past lack of roads and railways was 
objectionable; roads and railways built by abused slaves are worse. 

Burma's appalling destruction of forests and other natural resources is 
covered in several interviews. There is also commentary on mineral 
extraction in northern Burma, a topic which should be receiving 
increasing scrutiny, particularly with possible foreign investment in 
the Chin State's Mwe Taung mining area (for background on mining in 
Burma please see "Grave Diggers" by Roger Moody <http://miningwatch.ca>) 

Given the environmental devastation and the pattern of human rights 
abuse in  the Chin State, particular attention should be paid to 
apparent plans by Unocal Corp., in association with US Vice President 
Dick Cheney's Halliburton, for a possible gas pipeline from the Andaman 
Sea through western Burma to India. As has been seen with Unocal's 
Yadana Pipeline in southern Burma, much of the damage to the northwest 
may be done well before the pipe dream becomes a reality, as security 
work and land clearing are done far in advance, with masses of troops 
and massive forced labor.

In addition to the Chin and Kachin interviews, there is one with a Karen 
from the beleaguered Pa'an area (for detailed reports about genocide in 
Pa'an, see the Karen Human Rights Group <http://www.khrg.org>) and one 
with a Burmese (Burman) who spent a harrowing seven+ years incarcerated 
in Burma's medieval prison system. His story, compelling in itself, can 
also serve as a reminder of exactly what the others faced, had they not 
made it to Guam. It brings this report in something of a circle, as one 
of the first interviewees had been in charge of surveillance of those 
who visited democracy leader Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, and that very 
scrutiny had prevented the jail survivor from going to see her before he 
fled the country.

The interviews are presented in the order in which they were conducted. 
Project Maje is very grateful to Zo T. Hmung and Rev. Joan Maruskin, and 
to all those who assisted with and participated in this report on Guam. 
After the refugees there escaped the horrors of Burma, many have met 
with a less than warm reception by the US Immigration and Naturalization 
Service. Several have spent time in detention facilities on Guam, and 
some have been denied asylum during their initial interviews. This 
appears to be due to communications problems, including the refugees' 
ingrained intimidation when facing interrogation by authority figures. 
While waiting for asylum, the refugees are in a stressful limbo on Guam, 
which has a depressed economy and high unemployment rate. They are 
living on church charity and other donations, but making every effort to 
help themselves and each other. 

These are people who can be of benefit to the United States with their 
skills and resourcefulness, and to the international Free Burma movement 
as spokespersons and activists. They deserve a safe haven in which to 
recover from past trauma and prepare to build a sustainable and 
equitable future for their homeland, once Burma achieves liberation. The 
suffering they have endured cannot really be expressed in the mere words 
contained here. As one of the interviewees told about her village being 
burned to a heap of ashes by the regime's troops, tears began to roll 
slowly from her eyes. They were the tears of a witness who has seen more 
than we can ever know. 

Project Maje
year xv




Actions:

To learn more about helping the Guam asylum seekers, including 
sponsoring them for US residence, please contact: 
Rev. Joan Maruskin
Church World Service and Witness Immigration and Refugee Program
110 Maryland Ave NE, Suite 108
Washington DC 20002 USA
202-544-2375
jmaruskin@nccusa.org

For more information about the Chins, on Guam and in Chin Land, contact:
Chin Freedom Coalition
3568 Brandywine St. NW
Washington DC 20008 USA
410-470-1795
CFCoalition@hotmail.org
www.chinfreedomcoalition.org

The Chin Human Rights Organization maintains a website and publishes the 
excellent "Rhododendron" newsletter:
50 Bell St. #2
Ottawa, ON K1R 7C2 Canada
613-234-2485
chokhlei@hotmail.com
http://www.chro.org

For ongoing action suggestion and updates, join the Free Burma 
Coalition:
202-387-8030   www.freeburmacoalition.org

For background on Unocal Corp.'s activities in Burma, see EarthRights 
International: www.earthrights.org

Letters urging Unocal Corp. to not build a pipeline through Burma to 
India should be sent to: Mr. Charles Williamson, CEO, Unocal Corp., 2141 
Rosecrans, El Segundo CA 90245 USA.

========
During mid-2000, when many of the interviewees left Burma, about 350 to 
400 of the Burmese currency, the kyat, would equal one dollar, on the 
unoffical market. 
The bags of rice referred to weigh about 50 lbs. A "viss" is a 
measurement that equals about 1.5 kilograms or 3.5 lbs.    



Interviews

1. Satin Lal
Male, age 32. From: Falam, Chin State. Occupation: Pastor. Education: 
Bachelor of Theology. Ethnicity: Chin. Religion: Baptist. Left Burma: 
October 2000.
 Q: Why did you decide to leave Burma?
 A: The final point that made me leave the country was, I was trying to 
build the church and the government did not like that. We went on 
building the church                                                                
and I was threatened to be arrested. Instead of being arrested and be 
put in prison, I'd rather leave the country. The main person who told me 
not to build it was Col. Maung Tin, the man in charge of the district. 
 Q: Had you had problems with the government before that?
 A: Many, many. I had been in jail three times. First, 18 June, 1992. In 
1988 there was a big uprising and involved in revolutions were the 
students. They went underground and I went also, primarily to be their 
pastor. Preaching to them. We went to Kachin State, Pajau [Kachin 
Independence Army headquarters]. Then in 1991 my father passed away and 
I came back to see the grave of my father and to see my mother. At that 
time the government said "you are one of the insurgent leaders," so they 
arrest me. The second arrest was in 1995, October 5th. In 1995 there was 
a plan for the Chins to celebrate the harvest festival. This is a 
national festival. We went ahead and prepared for it and then the 
commander of there said, "you cannot celebrate." We said, "why not, this 
is our Chin traditional celebration." So I went to talk to them and 
instead I was arrested. In 1999, September 4, we called it "the four 
nines," symbolic, there was a plan throughout the Burma to have activity 
against the government. And I met with students in Falam and was 
involved in that activity. And somehow the military realized what was 
going on and struck first. And I and my wife (who was pregnant) were 
then taken away by the military on September 8th, a day ahead of it.
 Q: Tell about your treatment while in custody...
 A: A number of methods of torture. One would be, they put a plastic 
around my head, to suffocate me. Another is, they stripped me naked to 
be eaten by mosquitoes the whole time. They gave me meals consisting of 
rice and sand mixed. They literally shot at my head and somehow missed 
it, whether intentionally or not, the first time I was in prison. They 
forced me to kneel on the ground, on sharp rocks for hours, put shackles 
on my legs.
 Q: What about your wife, when she was in custody?
 A: They had my wife sit in the office, just sit there. While they were 
torturing me. After two days she was released.
 Q: In Falam, during the last two years you were there, what was the 
attitude towards religious practice?
 A: There was a commanding officer, his name was Col. Than Aung, he told 
me straight to my face that "Chins are our enemies, because Western 
people are our enemies." Christianity is a Western religion, Christians 
and probably pastors, are the number one enemy of the State. The cross 
that we planted on the hilltop, they cut it down, and on every hill they 
put up a Buddhist temple [pagoda]. Not only church buildings but 
anything related to religion, everything is banned, we cannot get it. 
When they believe that the situation is not good, they will even forbid 
us to worship. When we try for annual gathering, or Bible leaders' 
conference, we have to get permission from them. And they require a full 
detailed description of what is to be said, what is to be discussed, 
what are the subjects to be taught. If they don't approve, we don't get 
to. 
  Our association leaders, when they travel, they have to submit their 
itinerary to the military commander. In fact, early in the morning, we 
would broadcast [loudspeaker] devotionals every morning. The commander 
said he could not sleep, so it ended. And the other thing they do, 
probably to do some damage to the young people, they opened liquor 
stores, close by the church. So there's another tactic. And they would 
bring in the military trucks, military jeeps, and park them in the 
church compound. And they would come in and out of our church compound 
with their full equipment, weapons. We practiced church choir every 
Saturday evening, and the young people participate in it. The military 
often prevented them from going to church, or even after coming there, 
threatened them.
  I was pastor in a village about four miles from Falam. When the 
Military Intelligence Service came there they would force the Christian 
community to kill chickens for them, which had been donated for church 
functions. So we would have to do that kind of thing without pay. In 
1997, the military then took up to have built a Buddhist temple and 
forced, took two kyat each from every individual in Chin State. Those 
that were working for the government, they cut the two kyat from their 
salary. And they would promulgate saying that the Chins were 
participating in building of this temple. In the year 2000, in the month 
of April, the water festival in Burma, I was against that sort of thing 
as it's a Buddhist festival, and the government said I could no longer 
stay in Falam, so I moved. The main reason was that the District 
Commanding Officer issued an order that each house must contribute 500 
kyat for this festival. I was very much against that practice because 
why should we Christians be forced to pay 500 kyat just to celebrate 
that Buddhist festival? So I and other people initiated a mass movement 
to oppose it. So that's why they expelled me from being allowed to stay 
around Falam.
  There is a strong USDA [Union Solidarity Defense Association, 
government sponsored organization] even in Falam. So they enlisted eight 
theology students, they forced them to leave their school and play in 
the football field, even though the school was going on. And the 
principal said, "you should not play." And therefore the principal 
expelled them from school and there was lots of disturbances for three 
months. They could not open the school and the USDA said "behave or we 
will close the school altogether." So it's a very threatening situation. 
That was 1999.
 Q: Has pressure regarding religion increased, been the same, or 
decreased, in the last few years?
 A: I think it's more increasing.
 Q: Are young people in Falam using narcotics?
 A: The church and the youth groups as a whole were against using opium, 
but there is another substitute in tablet form, Diazepam [the generic 
name for Valium, an addictive sedative/tranquilizer], and many people 
are taking it. The tablets are being sold in stores by the government.
 Q: What was the health situation in Falam?
 A: There were lots of problems in regard to health. Falam has a 
hospital of 150 beds, but among the doctors there is not even a single 
Chin doctor. Burmese doctors are there. Over and above that, the 
assignment of medicines that should have come to the hospital were sold 
out by the doctors and the staff, and practically there was no medicine 
for the sick people in the hospital. And as a result, there were many 
who just could not afford to buy it, and the consequence is death. 
  In Falam we would have 50% malaria-stricken. The children born have 
lots of problems, including polio. Either for adults or children, the 
government does nothing to promote the health. In 1999 there was survey 
of the health, particularly women. In 1999 the finding is that 80% of 
women had some gynecological problems. Even if there are urgent needs 
for surgery operations, there are no surgeons in Falam. So we have to go 
either to Sagaing Division or even to Rangoon, spending hundreds of 
kyat. And many die just because they cannot afford that.
  My wife was working in the hospital in charge of the TB [tuberculosis] 
section, but there was practically no medicine, and therefore successful 
treatment is impossible. And because I left the country, my wife was 
fired this February, no longer is receiving the salary. From the UN 
there is an NGO [a non-governmental organization], there was an attempt 
to educate people regarding the AIDS. We applied for some health 
assistance to MCC, which is Myanmar Council of Churches. And they sent 
one staff member and some training to Falam, but to get permission for 
treatment or survey from the government, the government did not allow. 
Within the year 2000, there are ten people who died of AIDS in Falam. 
 Q: Was the NGO information in the Chin language?
 A: It was both in Burmese and Falam [Chin dialect]. In 1988 there was a 
military officer, Than Tin Maung, in charge of Falam township, and he 
was suffering with HIV disease. And he had a lax morality. As a result, 
most people believe he passed on the disease to many young girls. And 
that fact was published by the medical man in charge of Falam hospital, 
who said that within the next ten years, as a result of this behavior, 
there would be a thousand people in Falam suffering with HIV.
 Q: Are there many government army units stationed in Falam?
 A: One battalion. The soldiers would come to our gardens, pick up the 
fruits, whatever they want, vegetables, and we have no say. If we say 
something, they would beat us up. That's the practice. Not only 
vegetables and fruits, but chickens. In 1998 there was a man in Falam by 
the name of L. And the soldiers, probably they were drunk, and they 
threw stones at L.'s dogs. L. said, "why do you throw stones at my 
dogs?" Because of that questioning, the soldiers beat him up, so badly 
that he was taken to hospital. I was there, so I took care of him. At 
that time the military commander came and asked, "why did you ask the 
soldiers, 'why did you throw stones a my dogs'? You have no right to ask 
that question. The soldiers are the masters, they could do whatever they 
want. If they want to do, they can beat you up, if they want to do, they 
can shoot you. That's their prerogative."
  Another instance, there was a young lady 15 years old, attending high 
school, she was taken by two soldiers for raping. And then they stripped 
her of all of her clothes. And at that time the other people of the 
village came to the house, so the two soldiers ran away, and one of them 
before he ran away, he threw a big stone at her and it hit her on the 
shoulder. I went to the military commander and told the story. He 
assured me that he would take action, but the civilian has no right to 
inquire what he did. And we have no right to punish them. In spite of 
his promise, nothing was done to them. They just kept them at their 
headquarters.
  Anyone they suspect of association with the CNF [Chin National Front] 
will be arrested if they are caught, and the local military passes these 
sentences or whatever. In 1999 there was a lady in the village, she was 
old, 73, she raised chickens, pigs, she lived from those. And one night 
five soldiers went there and took all the chickens, 17 of them, put them 
in gunny bags, and took them to Falam military headquarters, and handed 
over the whole thing to the military commander. When we inquired about 
what had happened, the military commander said he knew nothing about 
that. 
  The relation between the military and the people is, in a nutshell, 
fear. Fear of the military, and so we cannot say anything we want to 
say, we cannot do anything we want to do. Even worshipping at the 
church, we are very scared, especially at night, when we go to the 
church. Especially girls, their parents would not allow them to go out 
at night as the military soldiers would do harm to them. The 
relationship is based on fear.
 Q: Why are the authorities concerned about the CNF in Falam, which is a 
city?
 A: The vast majority of the people are for the CNF, they supported 
them, and so the military are afraid of the CNF, because the CNF can 
come and go at will. They are with the people. So that's why they are 
afraid of the CNF.
 Q: In recent years, did people have to do work for the government 
military at all?
 A: There are too many things to mention; the difficulties with the army 
are too many. One thing is, the military use firewood for cooking. And 
those firewoods, they will force the people to cut it from the forest, 
carry it to the military persons. If they need water, to lay pipe in the 
ground, they will force the people to dig the ground and lay the pipe 
for them. And when the military travel to patrolling areas, they force 
the people to carry their ammunition, their baggage. They will do the 
same thing with the cars. To the car owner they will say, "stand by 24 
hours, we want your car, we will take it." And they will use the car 
many days without payment. 
  There is a sub-station of a village called Tibual. There is a road 
between Falam and the boundary area to India. Tibual is around that 
road, closer to the boundary. In that sub-station there were over 30 
soldiers, and the water source is [uphill from] the army station. And 
they would force the people to fetch water all day, every day. Without 
paying anything to them. And the soldiers would "cook" liquor there. The 
army would produce liquor, preparing it, "cooking" it, and then they 
would sell the liquor very cheaply to the people. Many young people got 
drunk. And when they had prepared it during the day, they would pour out 
the water at night, and they would force the people to fetch fresh water 
the next day. It went on and on in this cycle. It is going on even now.
 Q: Was there any change in the amount of work being done for the army 
in 2000?
 A: It was rather constant but slightly increasing, I think.
 Q: Is there logging going on in that area?
 A: There is a forest close by a village called Tlauhmun, nearby, maybe 
six miles from that village there is a forest, we call it Aikon forest. 
It's a forest that has grown for probably hundreds of years. And the 
military forced the people to cut down all these trees in 1999-2000. The 
military had it sawed into planks for building, and they sell it and 
they get the money. They sold it to the public works department, which 
is also a government department. And they used it for bridges -- but 
this "hual" wood is not good for bridges, so in a year or two the wood 
gets rotten. The vicious cycle goes on. The military get the money for 
their living. And then, from last year, [a man] was forced to move the 
log, but they could not move that one because the log was too big, so 
they shot him, but he did not die.
 Q: Do you know anything about an oil company in the area?
 A: There is a village called Kyi Goong, close to Chin State but in 
Kalemyo township now. In the British time it was part of Chin 
specification. But now the Burmese took it. At one time the Chin people 
[obtained] kerosene from it. The name of their leader was No Lian. They 
produced some kerosene for light. And then the military took it over, 
they gave contract to the Burmese guy. Then they didn't give the Chin 
workers money when the kerosene was produced. They did produce but they 
didn't share it. So it's still going on.
 Q: Around the time that you left, how much did rice and cooking oil 
cost?
 A: When I left, a bag of rice cost 3,800 kyat. Cooking oil, one viss 
would cost 750 kyat. Pork and beef would cost 700 kyat a viss. The 
prices go up and up.
 Q: Regarding Chin culture... 
 A: [Relocation of cemeteries is going on throughout the Chin State, all 
the different church cemeteries, including in Falam, the military is 
forcing the people to move them, and in Chin culture it is very 
important to keep the bones in one place and not to change or lose even 
one bone.] We visit the cemetery once a year, at least, and we 
sacrifice, kill some animal and pray for the dead person, once a year, 
that is the custom of the Chin people. They moved those cemeteries 
intentionally, because they know it is valuable to the Chin people. So 
they want to make the Chin people feel very sad. What they are going to 
do is, they will persecute and they will execute all the Chin people, if 
we are rising up against the military. The Falam cemetery was moved by 
the military and the people of Falam think that they want to kill all 
the Burmese soldiers, because they feel very bad at that time. But we 
told the people, "don't be violent. Because if we use the violent way, 
the military will execute all the Chin people, so keep going on with 
your prayers."
  Mwe Taung is located about ten miles away from Kalemyo, it is situated 
around the border of Chin State and Sagaing Division. It was found by a 
German scientist in 1983; he said that from Mwe Taung we can get some 
metal that can build the airplanes. When the military government heard 
about that, they wouldn't let the German expert go around the country, 
they forced him to go back to his country. They closed that project 
because they didn't want the Chin people to get rich or have more 
knowledge because of that mine. After that, in 1994, the Burmese 
military went there and they had research around there. After they knew 
that the conditions were perfect, they said that they had no charcoal to 
use in that mine so they cannot do any project in that mine. If Mwe 
Taung was not located in Chin State, if it was in a Burmese place, there 
would be a lot of metals to build airplanes.     
  And there's a lot of raw materials for cement in the Chin State, 
located six miles from Falam. If we can produce the cement from that 
area, it would be enough for all over the country. Some of the Chin 
experts knew about it, and they let the government know about that, but 
the government didn't do anything about it, saying that there's no 
charcoal for that project. 
  To produce the wood, especially the teak, the forests from Haka 
township, near the border between Chin State and Magwe Division, they 
constructed a railway to Kalemyo. One of the things that happened was 
that one of the Chin people, who was from Haka, was put into jail for 12 
years because he cut one wood from the forest. But the Burmese military 
cut all the forests and they took the teak into Mandalay and then to 
China. All of it arrives in the Shan State near the border of China and 
Burma. At the time, the military government made Gen. Thaung Zakhai in 
charge of that project. This teak from Chin Land, Gen. Thaung Zakhai 
said that this teak would be sold to China and with that money they are 
going to buy arms. After that, he died. He was poisoned by the military, 
his wife explained later on. He was one Chin person who was a general in 
the [government] army. That happened four or five years ago. The answer 
is that our Chin people cannot cut even one tree of the forest by 
ourselves.
  There was a project to build the airfield in Surbung Tlang, Falam 
Township, that project is from more than 15 years ago. That is on top of 
a mountain that is seven miles long and three miles wide. It was ordered 
by Gen. Maung Aye that all the gas, including the diesel, would arrive 
in Falam to start the airfield. They gathered villagers from villages 
around Falam and forced them to work in the airfield. The project was 
canceled again, because the don't want the Chin people to have this kind 
of airfield that later on they can use to have international contact. 
That's why the only state in the country that doesn't have an airfield 
is the Chin State.
  About the college and university. When the military government 
appeared, they said they will build a college in the Chin State. All the 
Chin people want to build that college in Haka, that is the capital of 
Chin State. But, the college that was built, was at the border between 
Sagaing Division and Chin State. But the military released the news 
internationally that they built one college in Chin State. After they 
released the news, they changed the name of the college to Kale College. 
After that, twenty of the Chin elders were arrested. Furthermore, we 
have two theology colleges in Chin State. That is in Falam and Haka, and 
the military always thinks about how to close those colleges. 
  How they destroyed the education system in Chin State is that with 4th 
standard, there is no more examination in the class. They go to school 
and they just step up to another standard. In those years, they learn 
Burmese, especially. After they finish 4th standard and they reach the 
middle school, they charge a lot of money for the classes. Most of the 
students cannot continue into middle school because they have not enough 
money and they have not enough foundation of education. We have one 
nurses' training school in Chin State. They opened that nursing school 
for the Chin people. Among the 150 trainees, for a year, only 30 
trainees are Chin people. The remaining trainees are Burmans and they 
change their name as the Chins. One of the Chins, if she wants to join 
that nursing school, she has to pay 300,000 kyat to the authorities of 
the school. That amount of money cannot be gotten by a Chin even if they 
work for ten years.
  One of the famous Chin singers, his name is Salai Sun Ceu, in his song 
he told that "the road of the Chin State is a 200 years' journey." That 
means that the roads in the Chin State will become good conditions in 
200 years. Each and every year, 40 to 50 people will die because of the 
car accidents. Because the roads are very narrow, and the steepness of 
the mountains. Five years ago, the India government told the Burmese 
government that the India government will construct the road from Kale 
to the border area. But the Burmese government did not allow to 
construct that road. If that road were open, the CNA, the CNF would move 
freely and they will get stronger.
  About the hydroelectric power in Chin State, there is three, that is 
in Tiddim, Falam and Haka. The hydroelectric power stations in Falam and 
Haka -- the engines were from Australia. Those machines were donated by 
Australia by Haka and Falam. But the military took those machines, and 
replaced them with China-made machines there. They took the Australian 
donated machines to Mogok [and Mandalay]. About the Tiddim hydroelectric 
power, during the construction of that hydroelectric power in Tiddim, 
the people were forced to work for the power plant. One of the soldiers 
shot with a gun one of the Chins, who died in Falam Hospital, seen by 
myself in 1998. The electricity power produced, they will distribute to 
the army camp as the first priority. And in Falam, according to the 
Japan Aid, we got a water supply from fourteen miles from Falam. All the 
water goes first to the army camp, and they use the water as they want 
to, and only the water that's left, the public can use. We Chins have a 
lot of resources to build hydroelectric power, but we can't even do it 
by ourselves, because the government doesn't allow us to make that kind 
of electric power in the Chin State.
  Our cultivation, we cut the trees first, after burning it down, we put 
the seeds into the soil, it is the custom of the Chin people. The 
military banned cutting and burning the forest, so we cannot plant our 
crops anymore. We have not enough food. One Chin in Thantlang township 
was arrested and put into jail for two years for that [cultivation]. 
About the livestock in Chin State. One of the unique animals that we can 
see in the Chin State is the mithun [a type of large domesticated wild 
cattle]. From one mithun we can get 200 viss of meat. About 300 
kilograms. All the mithuns were bought by the military and they sold 
them into the foreign country. If our own Chin people sold these animals 
into the border area, into India, we would be arrested and put into the 
jail for five to six years. Because they sold those animals, those who 
had connection with the [government] military, sold all those mithuns to 
another country, now there are hardly any left, and almost extinct. Each 
household used to raise the mithun. It was one of the symbols of the 
Chin people, and one of our wealths. We killed that animal only when we 
celebrate a big ceremony, as in ancient times.
  The orchids, a variety grows in the Chin State, the plants are very 
valuable in this time, so [harvest] was banned by the Forestry 
Department in the Chin Land. But Burmese people got the permits to buy 
those orchids, and they collected all those orchids from the Chin State. 
They carried all the orchids into Burma. 
  So, we Chin people have no right to use our resources, whether inside 
or outside of our Chin Land. There are limitations on education, 
transportation, and economics. We have no chance for international 
communications. The tourists can travel anywhere around the country, but 
not in the Chin State, they can arrive only up to Kalemyo. That's why we 
never see the foreigners in Chin State. 
  Food production is very low in our region. We rely on the food from 
outside our Chin State. Sometimes they limit the rice, and when they 
hold up the rice for one week, in Falam we have no more rice to eat. 
This morning I got the information that people are not allowed to carry 
the rice from Kalemyo, in Sagaing Division to Falam anymore. When the 
military wants to do something to the Chin people, first they cut off 
the rice to the Chin people. After that, the military thinks they can do 
anything they want to. In Falam and Thantlang townships, if there is no 
more rice for the public, for the Chin people, the Buddhist monasteries 
have rice. They distribute the rice to the Chin people. They "mark" the 
ones who get that rice from them as a "Buddhist." 
  There are orphanage schools, one in Falam and one in Thantlang and 
three in Kalemyo. There are about 150 orphans in Thantlang and 70 in 
Falam. They became orphans because their parents died from some disease 
or were killed. In Falam the school is called Nazareth Orphanage. It was 
taken care of by one of the teachers. He feeds them by collecting 
donations from one household to another in that town. And he raised some 
goats and cows, and earned some money by selling the milk, so he can buy 
some food and feed those orphans. He manages to keep that orphanage 
school going that way. We are sorry to see those children, because their 
situation, the way they are poorly dressed and underfed, is in very bad 
condition. 
  In Thantlang, the orphanage school, the difficulty they encounter is 
the same as in Falam. In the orphanage they teach the Bible, and in the 
daytime they go to school. The children practice a song asking people to 
help them, and they go from house to house collecting donations. 
Sometimes they have no more food to eat, so the teachers tell them to 
pray while they are "fasting."  There are orphans all over the Chin 
Land, maybe 10,000, but only a few orphanages in the Chin State. They 
can eat the meal with meat only once a month. They are malnourished and 
several have tuberculosis. I want their needs known internationally. For 
the orphans in Thantlang and Falam, about US$5,000 would meet all their 
needs for all of them for one month. Even the orphanage school could not 
practice freely, and the government wants to close it. They inquire 
about who donates money to them. We always see those orphans in our 
mind.       
 Q: Are they the same size at each age as the other children in town?
 A: Totally different. They are always malnourished and their growth is 
stunted.
 Q: If you compare the children in general in the Chin State with the 
children who live here on Guam, are they the same size at each age?
 A: I cannot express with words how much smaller the Chin children are! 
[a visitor] said that all of the villagers around Thantlang in Chin 
State were malnourished. Some Chin orphans were taken by the Burmese 
military, the number will be more than 2,000. They are brought to Pegu 
to one of the schools. They teach them Buddhism and they want to make 
them all into Burmans. They train all of them to act like Burmans when 
they're grown up. That happened since three years ago.
 Q: What do you know about "ethnic nationalities schools"?
 A: In Sagaing they have it. Nationalities Development College. The aim 
of the training is to have the mind of the Burman and the mind of the 
military during the training, and afterwards when they serve in their 
region, they will have that kind of spirit. [Elsewhere in Burma] there 
is a place where the military took some of the Chin young men, 
especially those who are naughty boys, to their camp and they are taught 
to be a lot of bad things, and they use those youths as a special force 
of them. There is a degree college of nationalities in Mandalay. [They 
teach science, art and the policy of the military. All indigenous 
people. After finishing there, they become officers in the government 
departments.]  
 
2. Biak To
Male, age: 50. From: Haka, Chin State. Occupation: former army and 
police officer (rank of Lt. Colonel.) Education: BA, Mandalay 
University. Ethnicity: Chin. Religion: Christian. Left Burma: November 
2000.
 Q: Why did you leave Burma?
 A: I tried to get a passport with my name, but I could not get it. "If 
you want a passport, you have to wait seven years," they said. So I 
tried to get a passport with my nickname, and they gave me a passport. 
One of my friends from the police, he told me that, "if you stay here, 
you will be captured." My file had been sent to the MI, so I had to get 
ready [to leave]. 
 Q: As a policeman, did you have some political problems?
 A: In 2000, May 27th, the NLD [National League for Democracy], Aung San 
Suu Kyi's party, they had their celebration. Their party annual meeting. 
The anniversary of 11 years. The British embassy and American embassy 
were invited to attend their celebration. And the government said they 
are not allowed to attend the celebration. And I wouldn't prevent them. 
So they changed [the task] to Lt. Col. Aung San Oo, but he is junior to 
me. He prevented them.
 Q: Did you have other situations with the NLD?
 A: One time, before the meeting, Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, she tried to 
travel outside of Rangoon. I was in charge of inquiries about Aung San 
Suu Kyi, and I didn't want to prevent her, and I didn't want to inform 
to the officers whenever she wanted to go out or not. One time, I don't 
remember the date, in 1998, she was about 13 days in her car, near the 
road. During the NLD meeting, I was charged with preventing Aung San Suu 
Kyi, but I don't want to prevent, so I took leave. 
 Q: Why did you change from being an army officer to a police officer?
 A: In 1988, September 18, the government took power. So they used the 
"Chin Battalion," army battalion in Taunggyi [Shan State]. So there 
could be something happening between the Chins and Shans. There could be 
fighting between the Chins and Shans. The [battalion name] said "Chin 
Rifles," 2nd Chin Battalion, but there was only Burmese. I felt that the 
name would cause enmity against the Chin people if they were used 
against Shan democracy demonstrators. So I did not agree for them to be 
used there and I protested to my superior officer. For that case they 
changed me from army to police.
 Q: Where were you when you were in the police?
 A: Firstly in the Shan State, then I am transferred to 6th Police 
Battalion in Rangoon. 14 July, I received dismissal from the government.
 Q: What was your economic situation in 1999-2000?
 A: In 1999 they gave us a pay raise of 1,200 kyat, especially the 
Burmese. Also in 2000 they increased the pay.
 Q: Were there any difficulties regarding religion?
 A: So many difficulties. In December 23, 1999, I took a Christian movie 
to our battalion families, this is the Jesus Christ picture. So my 
superior officer, they knew and summoned me again: "what about you 
showed this film? For the Buddhism? This is long-nose American people 
and British people. So we don't like you to show this movie." And 
another problem, one of the evangelist pastors, he was preaching in 
Arakan, and one of the [Buddhist] monasteries burned in a fire. So they 
detained the evangelist pastor. One of the pastors in Rangoon knew about 
it and told me. So I helped to get the evangelist released in one month. 
This matter was known to my superior officer, so I was summoned again 
and they punished me. They told me that if I did again like that, to 
help a religious case, they would dismiss me from my position and they 
would arrest me. During my time, they did not find me guilty of any 
crime, but they were searching again and again.
 Q: Where did your police orders come from?
 A: MI is the Military Intelligence. SB2 [Special Branch] is the Police 
Intelligence. I was doing only security [surveillance] work. The army 
officers order the police officers.  
 Q: Who tried people arrested by the police?
 A: If they army caught the civilian people, they don't go to trial. 
They torture them, we cannot say the exact time, any time, one day, two 
days, one month. The time is not equal. But if the police officer 
arrests the civilian people, for two weeks they are detained in lock-up. 
And then after two weeks or one month, they will be put on trial. 
 Q: Were people being taken to work for the army?
 A: They forced the civilian people to do work for them outside the 
city. The prisoners, also, were forced, every day. The civilians were 
not forced every day, but sometimes. 
 Q: Did you know of orders issued to stop forced labor?
 A: I never heard of anything like that. The Burma government says, they 
do not force and kill the people, but this is not true. It is only 
denial. They always force and kill the people.
 Q: Was there corruption in the police department?
 A: It may be true, but I didn't know myself. The people who did it 
wouldn't tell me.
 Q: What was the narcotics situation?
 A: My duties and obligations were only security, so I never knew a drug 
case or any other cases.
 Q: Did you have to do any security about people from the ceasefire 
groups?
 A: In the police department there are two kinds of police: crimes 
obligation officer and security department. I was always in the security 
department. We did not know about narcotics groups. In my battalion, we 
stick to 34 places for the NLD, in Rangoon city. We cannot check all 
them all of the time. So if we hear some news, we check. We take only 
security and we cut the communications. My [police] battalion, we 
protect Aung San Suu Kyi's residence. Lt. Col. Aung San Oo's battalion, 
my own battalion and Battalion 6. So, outside people, if they want to 
communicate with Aung San Suu Kyi, they ask and I report to the MI and 
SB2. If the MI and SB2 does not allow to meet and does not allow to 
communicate, we tell that to the person. If they allow, we allow them to 
go inside. Foreigners and Burmese people also.
 Q: Did  you also keep watch on NLD headquarters as well as Aung San Suu 
Kyi's house?
 A: NLD headquarters is watched by Battalion 6.
 Q: And what about things like telephone and letters, were they also 
checked?
 A: That is another branch.
 Q: How did you get information about news events?
 A: We could not know outside conditions, but the superior office would 
give orders. We had no radio, we had no computer.
 Q: What was the relationship between the army, police and the people?
 A: In my experience, before 1988, at the time I was an army officer, it 
was not as bad as now. After 1988, while I was a police officer, it is 
very bad. Their [army] guns are used for robbery. Their rations are not 
sufficient, our salary is not sufficient for food. So that this is very 
bad and getting worse. 
 Q: Is the army making economic profit?
 A: All the economics are held by superior officers. We are struggling 
for our daily food. All the economic power is held by generals, 
[cabinet] ministers, like those positions. We don't have any powers.
 Q: Do you think there is division inside the army and police about 
democracy?
 A: I don't know the real conditions between Maung Aye and Khin Nyunt. 
But I know one thing. A lot of army and a lot of police want to get 
democracy. Civilians also want like this. But the superior officers, 
they do not dare to give in to Aung San Suu Kyi's power. So that Burmese 
civilian groups to not dare protest for democracy, because they are 
afraid of arms. And we are not linked between the army and civilian 
people. The Burma Army and police are loyal in their obligations, they 
are afraid -- if they are dismissed from their position, how can they 
get food and salary. This is very important. Now they are very poor. 
They do not dare to fight for democracy.
  And so, just now, the NLD and Khin Nyunt are talking with one another. 
But I don't believe [in] it. Because Khin Nyunt is not ever daring to 
hand over to Aung San Suu Kyi. Because all the time, he asks and 
complains to Aung San Suu Kyi, "if I hand over to you, how can I have 
protection for my life?" So that he himself is not confident for his 
life. Now the army officers and those governing are strongly persecuting 
and torturing the [opposition] politicians and the civilian people. So 
that if they hand over to the people, they are worried like this, that 
they [themselves] will be tortured. They are worried about their lives. 
They are not confident for it. If another nation, another country, if 
they help us to fight, at the last moment, then they may hand over to 
the public.

3. Nun Uk
Male, age: 42. From: Thantlang, Chin State. Occupation: former 
schoolteacher, elected Member of Parliament; shopkeeper. Education: BS, 
Mandalay University. Ethnicity: Chin. Religion: Christian. Left Burma: 
July 2000.
 Q: What were your activities in 1988?
 A: In 1988, at that time the Burmese people did not look upon us 
[Chins] like ethnic nationalities. They looked upon us as like animals. 
So that I was very angry and I organized all of the Thantlang people to 
demonstrate for one month. I organized the university students and high 
school students. We addressed the crowds and preached and announced that 
we don't like this Burmese military regime. [They burned an effigy of Ne 
Win in a coffin.] We were for democracy. 1988 in September, there were 
two kinds of address to the people. One kind is "We don't like Ne Win 
and his government." The other is "Democracy is good for us and we need 
democracy." But one month later, the army was coming and we dispersed 
and we gave up these demonstrations.
 Q: What were your activities during the election time?
 A: September 18, 1988, the military army's coup d'etat. But they 
announced "we make the election, if the public desires." So that 
November, I went to Rangoon and advised other Chin people and 
established CNLD [Chin National League for Democracy]. Later, I came 
back to my hometown, Thantlang, so I organized Thantlang's people, so we 
established the Thantlang CNLD. They selected me for the candidate and I 
won. 
 Q: Did you have any difficulties with the authorities after the 
election?
 A: After the candidacy, the police and army arrested some of the 
parliament and politicians. So that 5th of January, 1991, the MI 
officers and soldiers came and arrested me in my house. After they 
arrested me, they held me in the police station and put me in the dark 
place. And they mistreated and scared me so that I worried about 
everything. In a dark place, they kept me for two months. So that I 
worried and was afraid. And then they knew that my emotions were down, 
so they transferred me again to another place. Locked up, but not dark. 
The total period was six months. They asked me, "Do you help CNA [Chin 
National Army]?" "Do you participate again in CNLD?" and "Do you fight 
against our army?" They asked every night these three questions. Six 
months later, I answered them, "I will never participate in CNLD, I will 
never support NLD, and I will never be against the army." So, they 
released me. But, after I was released, every month, the MI investigated 
me: "what are you doing?" "where are you staying?" "where do you go this 
month?"  
 Q: Did you also have problems in later years?
 A: In the night-time, 9:00 PM to 4:00 AM, was the army military curfew. 
And every night they shot the gunfire. Because they try to scare the 
people. Sometimes the MI and soldiers came to my house and made a 
surprise check. In the night-time they didn't allow worship service. 
They didn't allow us to communicate or for more than five people to sit 
together to pray. In this condition it was very difficult to live in my 
town. If we want to go, first and foremost we ask army officers for 
permission. If he does not allow us to go to our field, we cannot go.
  In this situation, in 1997, January 3, a bomb exploded near my 
kitchen. This was 1:00 AM, early morning. Some of my kitchen was broken, 
but the people were not harmed. Immediately, the army and MI came to my 
house and they arrested [me and] my son and my neighbor, three persons. 
The MI and army took us to the police station and they tortured and 
persecuted us very violently. One of the MI officers hit me in the head 
with his pistol, here is the scar. And they beat me and kicked me. Some 
of my teeth were broken. [has row of metal false teeth on same side as 
scar] On March 13 they released me again. My son, also they tortured 
him. Because he was one of the university students, they said, "you were 
participating in demonstrations. So that this explosion, we believe that 
in reality it is yours." Every time he denied it. So he also was 
released on 13th of March, with the other person. They always tortured 
and persecuted us for three months, but we always denied it, because we 
did not do this bomb. So they released us. After release, we heard about 
this bomb: the bombers were the [government] army. 
  The Burmese soldiers, everywhere and every time, they scare and 
mistreat the people. The army people never do good things for our Chin 
people. They force us. They never give money for us. One time, the army 
is forcing people to prepare the road, and one of the stones is rolling 
upon the man. And he is crying out. Other people try to help him. The 
soldiers did not allow them to help, because the soldiers said, "if he 
is dead, no problem for us. Go and do your duty." So his friends are 
very sorrowful and they are working quickly to prepare the road. All the 
time he is crying. At last they could help to roll away the stone, and 
he was not dead. 
  And then, in 1999, one villager traveled to come to Thantlang, and 
between Falam and Thantlang, one of the group of army encountered him. 
They asked his name. But they were looking for someone with a similar 
name who was serving in CHRO [Chin Human Rights Organization]. The army 
did not investigate the question, they shot [the villager] on the spot. 
  In one village, a man did not understand the Burmese language. So that 
the patrolling army, they asked him his name and they called him. But he 
didn't understand their Burmese language. So they shot him on the spot. 
We are troubled in our nation. Most of the Chin people, the ladies and 
gentlemen, they are worried about their life. So that so many people 
left their nation and their village and came here to ask asylum. If the 
army patrolling group arrives in the town or village, everybody who 
shows, they arrest and collect them in the town hall and force them to 
carry their food and their arms. Sometimes for one week, sometimes for 
three days, four days. They shoot and steal pigs, cows. They never give 
money to the villagers. My sons also so many times were taken as 
porters. Among these porters, some are ladies. One of the girls from one 
village was very beautiful. During her time as a carrying porter, they 
raped her. She was very angry and worried. But the Burmese officer 
advised her, "respond to me with 'thank you.'" It is very difficult for 
our sons and daughters.
 Q: Would you say that in the year before you left, the army was taking 
people to work for them more, or less, or the same?
 A: They have forced the villager to carry. Even though the villager is 
very small and it is very heavy for him, he cannot avoid carrying. They 
keep one porter between one soldier and another soldier. The porters go 
ahead of them, the soldier, the porter, because they [soldiers] do not 
dare to go bravely. If they are patrolling in our Chin land, the Burmese 
army are ten battalions. So every time they go out traveling and 
patrolling, every time we are carrying. Just before I came here, they 
used it all the time. Just now, I believe they are using it. Because 
some villages are in bad transport. They cannot drive to there, and no 
horses, so that they can use only porters for carrying.
 Q: Is Thantlang a forest area and is there any kind of logging?
 A: Our Chin land has not much forest. Because our government did not 
make development for the Chin people. So most of Chin people are 
shifting farmers, cutting all of the trees and forests. Just now, we cut 
all of the forests and the trees, so that our land is now bad, the 
climate is now also very bad. We have not enough food, because every 
time the army disturbs us.
 Q: Were there any foreign companies around Thantlang?
 A: The army government does not allow any technician persons to come to 
our land, or any other foreigners. If we try to contact foreigners, they 
will torture and persecute us. 
 Q: Before you left, what was the price of rice and of cooking oil?
 A: In our Chin land, the government service officer gets a salary of 
1,500 kyat [per month], and the worst rice, one bag is 3,000. The good 
condition rice is 6,000. Oil, one viss is 600 kyat. But one of the 
teachers' salary is 1,500.
 Q: Around Thantlang, if people grew their own rice, was there a tax on 
it?
 A: It is not like in America. They take and collect, sometimes 
secretly, the army collects it.
 Q: In the Thantlang area in 1999-2000, what was the education 
situation?
 A: Not only in Thantlang, but in our Chin land, it is very poor for our 
education. In Thantlang district there are only two high schools. And 
primary schools is around about 80. The teachers' salary is very few, 
and they are not enough, so that they cannot teach full-time. To pass 
examination, they collect money. If the student can give some money to 
the teacher, he is already passed. But in reality, the student is not 
understanding. The worst thing is, in our Chin land, no human rights and 
equal rights. Because the Burmese people obstruct to teach our Chin 
language and Chin literature. 
 Q: Is school taught in Burmese or Chin?
 A: They teach in Burmese language. But if they don't understand in 
Burmese language, they explain in our Chin language. But legally, they 
government does not allow to teach in the Chin language. 
 Q: Do people start their own schools?
 A: They never allow private schools. If they know they make private 
schools, they will arrest this person. 
 Q: What about religious schools?
 A: They wanted to teach in our Chin language. But the government never 
allows to teach them. Only in Sunday school can they teach concerning 
about Christianity. There are a few Christian orphanage  schools.
 Q: Are the young people using narcotics?
 A: The government cannot control the school and young people. So the 
teenagers and other young people have...character mistakes. Most of the 
Chin people did not use drugs. But they use alcohol. Because the army 
officers allow to make most of the alcohol, to sell themselves. Their 
characteristics are very low.       
 Q: What happened before you came here?
 A: In my land the condition is this: some young people do not dare to 
stay in our land. In our land, remaining people are only old, and the 
young children. When we left our Chin land, it is very hard for us, 
because we are missing and longing for our family. It is the best thing 
for us. Just now we are arrived in Guam. We enjoy it -- but in reality 
we are not enjoying it, because of our longing for our land. 
  [Villagers near the India border were told that Nun UK was being 
looked for to be killed; his cousin and an associate were executed by 
soldiers; the news of the execution was on the VOA and BBC and in a CHRO 
publication; he was blamed for spreading the news; friends and family 
warned him and he fled to Rangoon and then overseas.] I know the 
condition of the other CNLD [elected] Members of Parliament. One of 
them, Dr. Za Hlei Thang, he is already arrived to asylum in United 
States. And one, Kapve Tei Kual, he was in Rangoon but he had a heart 
attack after the army summoned him again and again. Our CNLD General 
Secretary, Lian Hmung is already arrived in Sweden. [another remains in 
Rangoon under house arrest.] So most of the CNLD leaders are going 
abroad, they do not dare to stay in our Chin land, because they worry 
about their life.

4. Esther
Female, age: 25. From: Thantlang township, Chin State. Occupation: 
university student. Education: 1st year, Rangoon University, Hlaing 
Campus. Ethnicity: Chin. Religion: Christian. Left Burma: July 2000.
 Q: Why did you leave Burma?
 A: When I lived in my village, my village was burnt by the Burmese 
military, and I wanted to bring democracy and human rights to Burma. So 
I helped the organization that's called the CNF, who fight for democracy 
and self-determination for the Chin people. That's why the Burmese 
military was going to charge and arrest me, so that's why I left the 
country.
 Q: When was your village burned by them?
 A: April 17, 1995. Early morning around 3:00 AM, the Burmese military 
hit our village with a launcher. My cousin, the poor lady, was killed by 
the Burmese soldiers; her daughter was only 5 months old. Our village 
was completely burned and we had nothing to eat. We lived without food 
for three days and three nights. 
 Q: Was there fighting in the area at the time?
 A: Only near the village there was fighting. 
 Q: After the village was destroyed, where did the people go?
 A: Near the village was a small river, so all the villagers settled 
there.
 Q: At the time, were the government soldiers taking people to work for 
them at all?
 A: They forced the villagers to carry as a porter, which means they 
carry the things of the military. 
 Q: Who would they ask to carry things for them?
 A: Most of them are men; all the old or young men, they force them to 
work. 
 Q: In 1998 to 2000, would the army take people to work for them?
 A: Yes, a lot. Most of the time they forced them to work as a porter. 
Sometimes they force them for construction of the roads. And they 
collect money from the villagers by force for the military.
 Q: Just before you left, was that kind of work still going on?
 A: Yes it was.
 Q: Was there logging around your village?
 A: Near the village, the Burmese military made a camp, and they used a 
lot of logs from the trees for their camp. To build the military camp, 
the military forced the villagers, mostly men, to build their camp most 
of the time. So the villagers didn't have enough time to work for their 
living. So near the village they have a difficulty for their living.
 Q: Did the villagers speak with the government soldiers?
 A: Actually they hate them, but they are afraid of the Burmese. So they 
have to talk with them. If they don't talk very well, the soldiers took 
their pigs and their cattle without paying any money. They may take the 
girls from the village and keep them in their camp. They look down very 
much on the villagers and sometimes they rape the girls. They do a lot 
of things.
 Q: How was your education?
 A: I did very well in school, I was an outstanding student, so I wanted 
to have the higher education, for my Chin people, so that's why I went 
to the university. Because my village was burned down by the military, I 
wanted to be educated to serve my village some day. Since 1988, the Chin 
people, most of the students, they fight for democracy. If we have no 
education, we cannot promote our Chin people.
 Q: How much were you able to go to classes at Rangoon University?
 A: For university life, only two months. I was at the university and 
the university was shut down. So I went back to my village and most of 
the time I helped the CNF, including the fundraising, and distribution 
of the magazines and pamphlets. 
 Q: What were some of the CNF activities?
 A: We talked and preached to the villagers about what democracy is and 
how our Chin people didn't get their rights. Most of the time we talked 
about the value of democracy. 
 Q: Did the CNF have military activity in your area as well?
 A: Yes.
 Q: Was there much government military in your area in 1999-2000?
 A: Yes. [several platoons]
 Q: In your village area, what kinds of illnesses did people have?
 A: About 70 to 80% of the women, they have the gynecological problems. 
And most of the people have the heart disease because most of the 
villagers live with anxiety, because the military chases their father, 
or their brother, or their sister, or their cousin. They don't have the 
health education, they don't have the health facilities, and it's far 
away from the town, so there's no health care at all. So most of the 
babies, when they are born, 95% become yellow with jaundice. More than 
10% die [infant mortality]. They know about the tuberculosis and the 
HIV/AIDS. Most of the disease they have is malaria, and some 
tuberculosis, and some people get HIV infection because of the Burmese 
military.
 Q: Did people have enough food in your area?
 A: Previously, we had enough food, but later on, nowadays, the 
villagers didn't have enough food, because they have to work for the 
military most of the time and didn't have enough time to work for 
themselves. So 60% of the people are in shortage of the food, 40% have 
enough food.
 Q: When you were there, what was the cost of rice and cooking oil?
 A: One bag of rice is about 5,500 kyat and one viss [oil] costs 700 to 
800 kyat. The price is always increasing, not stable, not going down.
 Q: During your two months at university, was there political activity 
among the students?
 A: Yes. I got involved in the demonstration against the government. We 
demanded some points to the government. To release Min Ko Naing. To 
release other student leaders arrested by the military. To hand over 
power to the elected NLD leader Daw Aung San Suu Kyi. To let us form the 
student union. That's why I was arrested and detained for one night. I 
got involved in anti-government action during my student life, and then 
I lived in the village and I helped the CNF members to distribute the 
pamphlet and collecting money for funds and preaching to the people 
about democracy. That's why the Burmese military knew about me, so they 
were going to arrest me.

5. "Ms White"
Female. From: Myitkyina, Kachin State. Education: post-graduate degree. 
Ethnicity: Kachin. Religion: Baptist. Left Burma: November 2000.
 Q: Why did you leave Burma?
 A: I had a problem with the government, the Kachin State authority. 
When I was working in my department, the government forced us to donate 
money to the Buddhist festival from our salary every month, without our 
consent. They deducted it every month. The most recent was the 
[Buddhist] festival of lights, and the government deducted money from 
our salary. I led my colleagues to oppose the donation, I organized them 
against the policy. So the MI asked us to come and see them for a few 
questions, interrogation. I just refused and fled.
 Q: Had the government ever questioned you before?
 A: In 1998 there was a government policy to do the farming, to expand 
the cultivation, the rice farming, so we were forced to go and farm 
those lands, about three persons for each acre, to a village far from 
Myitkyina. We would have to go there by train, by car and then walking. 
A remote place with forests and malaria. Virgin land that we would have 
to transform into farmland. To expand the rice production. We would have 
to sleep on night on the way, to get there. The first time, our 
department only asked for men, but the second time they asked for women 
as well. I refused to go there, since it's very difficult. That's why I 
was arrested and taken into custody for eight days. After eight days 
they released me with a warning, and I had to pay them as a penalty for 
defying the military orders. They warned me that if I offend any other 
government orders, then I will be punished strongly.
 Q: Was the university in Myitkyina open or closed most of the time?
 A: After 1996 it was shut until June 2000. The correspondence kind of 
university, "distance university" was open. All of the distance 
universities were controlled by Rangoon University in the past. In 
recent years, Mandalay University became in charge of upper Burma. The 
students have to attend only ten days before their exams. Before that 
they have a kind of correspondence. They have to attend weekend classes 
for about three months before they take their exams. Up to 10th grade 
[standard] in high school, they are taught quite properly, but after 
they pass their 10th grade, most of the students start to work. To 
attend the university or the distance learning is only to get a degree. 
Just for show. It won't mean anything, it won't help anything for them. 
They won't learn properly.
 Q: Did the government give special training sessions?
 A: Every employee has to attend special training by the government 
based on their policy, concerning unity of the ethnics in Burma and the 
policy of the military government, that kind of thing we had to learn. 
We were forced to attend the classes, that's why we went. We felt it 
wouldn't do anything for us, but it is necessary to attend the training.
 Q: Did they have the USDA in Myitkyina?
 A: It was not necessary to be part of the USDA but if you want to join 
it, you can. I didn't join it. But sometimes if they need some help they 
ask you to help those people. Last year they had a kind of mass meeting 
from every part of the country. And some of the people of USDA from 
[Tenasserim] Division came to Myitkyina to attend the meeting, so the 
local people, had to accommodate those people, so I was forced to feed 
two of them. 
 Q: Are there many government troops in Myitkyina itself?
 A: Yes, I'd see them every day. There's plenty of the government 
soldiers since the Northern Division of the Burmese Army is based in 
Myitkyina. I didn't have any problems with the soldiers in the city. I 
wasn't involved in anything regarding them. 
 Q: Were there any problems regarding religious practice in Myitkyina?
 A: I don't know much about this, but what I witnessed was, we 
Christians were not allowed to build a new church in Myitkyina. Even in 
the university it was not allowed to build a church or prayer room for 
the students so they have to worship in a small hut.
 Q: Are there taxes or other ways the government asks for money in 
Myitkyina?
 A: For every festival, high school and university students are forced 
to donate the money. Every student, every teacher. And from their salary 
the department deducts it. On top of that they have to donate by 
themselves as well. 
 Q: Did students or teachers have problems with the authorities?
 A: Most did not have problems with the government. They know the 
outcome so they won't do it.
 Q: Has the situation in Myitkyina become better or worse in the last 
five years?
 A: I don't see that it's become better. 
 Q: Were people from the city asked to work for the army in 1999-2000?
 A: Apart from the farming, they have to do forced labor for building 
bridges and building roads and for cleaning the woodlands. It's always 
continuous work, most of the time. Building the bridges was 1999.
 Q: At the time you left, what was the cost of rice and cooking oil?
 A: The regular grade, not quality and not the worst one, for a bag of 
rice, which is about 50 pounds, is about 5,000 kyat. The worst kind is 
around 3,000. Just to get the idea, before the government increased the 
salary, it was a starting salary of 1,300 to 1,500 kyat [per month]. So 
for a person who earns that kind of salary, they probably cannot afford 
to buy bags of rice. On top of that, a kind of additional payment of 25 
kyat every year. After they increased the salary, now we earned about 
5,700 kyat [per month], the current salary. And a bottle of oil, this is 
about 300 kyat. The prices never go down. The traders, whenever they 
hear that the government is going to increase the salary, the price of 
the foodstuffs is always increased. So there's no going down, always 
increased. It's always available, unless the trains have a problem, in 
which case the price of foodstuffs is increased. The only available 
transportation for it is the train. 
 Q: Where do the manufactured goods in the markets or shops in Myitkyina 
come from?
 A: Some of the things are made in Burma and some from China. At the 
university the facilities it has, the level of the education is very, 
very low. Nobody had even seen computers in the past. From last year, 
they started to see computers in the university. There's about 20 
computers in the whole university, but most people there didn't know how 
to use it. They were given a kind of training, but don't really know 
about the computers, not even what kind they were. The first were a kind 
of Apple, that was given by the company as a kind of present. There's no 
internet facilities or e-mail facilities, only word processing like a 
typewriter.
 Q: How did you get information in Myitkyina?
 A: From the radio, like BBC or VOA.

[note: The KIA (Kachin Independence Army) is the military force of the 
KIO (Kachin Independence Organization.)]

6. Maran Kai Ra
Female, age 28. From: Sumprabum, Kachin State. Occupation: family 
grocery store and distributing medicine. Education: BA, Myitkyina 
University. Ethnicity: Kachin. Religion: Baptist. Left Burma: September 
2000.
 Q: Why did you leave Burma?
 A: Because of the political movement. Since 1988 I started to be 
involved in the student movement, and after that, when Aung San Suu Kyi 
came to Myitkyina, I welcomed her with flowers. After she left, I was 
asked to come to the MI for interrogation, and after that I had a 
record. I was also involved with the 1996 student movement and 
continuously I was involved in the political movements and organizing 
and distributing political pamphlets. Most recently they suspected me of 
involvement with Aung San Suu Kyi's party and the underground student 
movement. My name was on their list. One of my uncles was an elected 
party Member of Parliament of the NLD party and I always followed him, 
helping him for organizing for the party, so they recognized me.
 Q: What was political organizing like as a student?
 A: We had to do it as an underground movement, through the religious 
groups and the Kachin literature and the cultural organizations. We 
don't have formal organizations like student unions.
 Q: How did you get information?
 A: News from abroad we get from BBC, VOA and AIR, but within Burma, 
within the student organization we have a kind of representative or 
student leader from Myitkyina or Rangoon and they travel and give 
information to each other. 
 Q: How did the university teach history?
 A: Most of the history that we learned was not the facts, but they 
rearrange history, rewrite history. About Burmese people themselves, how 
good they were to the people. 
 Q: Were many university students involved in politics?
 A: About 60% of the students were interested in politics.
 Q: Were students using narcotics?
 A: Yes. Opium and heroin. Since the universities were closed, students 
started to use the drugs. At the new universities in Rangoon, there is 
almost free drug trading going on at the university compounds. To 
persuade the students not to be involved in the politics, to deal with 
the pressure. There's even prostitution there.
 Q: What education was available in Sumprabum?
 A: There's only up to 8th grade [standard] in Sumprabum. So mostly they 
have to go to Myitkyina or Rangoon for higher education. 
 Q: What were the health conditions in Sumprabum?
 A: There's no proper clinic or hospital, there's not a single doctor. 
And there's plenty of health problems, especially malaria. The local 
people in Sumprabum are taught by the nurses, not by the doctors, how to 
avoid the diseases. As far as I know, there's no HIV positive in the 
area, but some TB. The people who have TB have to go to Myitkyina for 
treatment, there's no clinic.
 Q: Are there traveling doctors in the area?
 A: There's a kind of doctor who goes around checking villagers, almost 
once a year. 
 Q: What is the food situation in the Sumprabum area?
 A: Mostly everything is locally grown. But salt and oil... they bring 
from Myitkyina. There's not enough rice. Because of the hill cultivation 
we cannot produce enough rice for the local people. 
 Q: Is there much government army in the area?
 A: Yes, they have an army base there. 
 Q: Do they ever ask people to work for them?
 A: Yes, many times. In the past, there's plenty of portering. People 
were forced to work as porters. But now, there's almost no more 
portering. But still people are forced to do forced labor to build their 
army camp or to build roads or such things. There's no payment. Every 
household has to do it one by one. If this week it's this household, 
next week it will be the other to help the military.
 Q: When's the last time you were in Sumprabum?
 A: May 2000.
 Q: At that time, was the army still asking people to work for them?
 A: Yes, mostly building the road.
 Q: Is there logging in that area?
 A: Yes, the government gives the permit to businessmen, mostly Chinese, 
to cut the wood, and taking the gold and cane for trading. The hire the 
local people and people who come from Myitkyina, not just Kachin, 
everyone. Because of that permission to cut the tree and do the gold 
mining and other stuff, most of the mountains and the hillsides have 
been emptied of forests. And the way of the streams, they also changed 
it to dig the gold. So everything's changed, and also the wildlife. In 
the past we heard the sound of the wildlife. But no more. They all ran 
away. You can hardly see any wild animals in the area anymore. 
 Q: What kind of animals were there before?
 A: There were so many things, like tigers, monkeys, and boars. 
Especially monkeys, so many monkeys, but no more. 
 Q: What about fishing?
 A: In the past the villagers, the local people only used nets for 
fishing. But the people from the city, when they arrived, they used the 
mines [explosives] for the fishing. That's why now there is almost no 
more fish at all. 
 Q: How is the water for drinking?
 A: The water's very good.
 Q: Besides the Chinese, were there any other foreigners coming to the 
area for business?
 A: Apart from the Chinese there's no other foreigners, no Indians, no 
Westerners.
 Q: In Sumprabum, in the last two years before you left, was life for 
the local people getting better?
 A: There's not much change, but I would say slightly better because of 
the ceasefire between the KIA [Kachin Independence Army] and the 
government, since there is no fighting. So they are not forced to 
porter, so it's a little bit safer than before. 
 Q: Is the gold mining or logging improving people's economic status?
 A: Slightly better, but I believe that for the long term it won't be 
good.
 Q: Are people able to freely practice their religion there?
 A: They are allowed to, if they get the permission from the military 
authorities. In advance they have to ask for permission. How many days 
the Christian festival or religious festival will take place, how many 
people will come to the festival. For the moment, the local people 
cannot afford to build a new church.
 Q: Is there any effort to convert people to other religions there?
 A: A Buddhist mission is there now. There is no pressure, but they 
offer if you become Buddhist, they will take you to Rangoon or Mandalay. 
 Q: How was it for you to travel between Sumprabum and Myitkyina?    
 A: In the past, we had to walk for about a week to get to Myitkyina 
from Sumprabum. But now there is car transportation, but it will take 
about two days, two nights. Which is about, just over 100 miles. 132 
miles. It costs about 5,000-6,000 kyat, one month's salary.

7. Titus Mahkaw
Male, age 37. From: Myitkyina, Kachin State. Occupation: pastor and 
Bible college teacher. Education: Bachelor of Divinity. Ethnicity: 
Kachin. Religion: Fundamentalist Baptist. Left Burma: October 2000. 
 Q: Why did you leave Burma?
 A: Because there were some religious matters, some expressions. We 
cannot move on our own, we cannot freely express the good news. We 
cannot move as we like, not free even in religious affairs. We could not 
finish building the men's dorm. You cannot even build a toilet or 
restroom. The problem is, you cannot question anything, "what is the 
matter," you cannot raise the question.
 Q: Were you able to celebrate holidays in 1998-1999.
 A: That was not a problem, to celebrate Christmas or Easter.
 Q: Could you have Bible study any time?
 A: Bible study was OK, but we could not go out for further study, 
cannot go abroad. If you are a pastor, you cannot move for study. 
Because we preach the freedom. What the Bible says, we have to preach. 
But we are not free in Burma, and when we preach it is always about 
freedom, so it's against the law of the military. 
 Q: Do you see Biblical reminders of the experience in Burma?
 A: I feel like the Israelite people, when they were the slaves under 
the Egyptians, they were always crying to God, "save us" and then God 
released them from their bondage, something we are facing like that. 
Because we have to cry always, "God help us with the situation happening 
here." We cannot move as we like, that means no freedom. Of course the 
Bible tells us that we are free, from the bondage of sins or anything, 
but we feel that we are not free in Burma.
 Q: Did the government military people ever come to your church?
 A: Sometimes there is a guard, when they are patrolling. They will 
hinder in the night time, after nine o'clock, they won't allow persons 
on the street. That means only in the daytime we can work within the 
village or the area. They will stop people and whatever they like, they 
will do that, at night. Anything except Buddhism, all the religions are 
restricted. Muslim or other religions [are restricted]. Most popular are 
the Baptists, in our place, so we cannot move as we like. Islam, they 
cannot move also. What they say is, "all the Burmese should be the 
Buddhists. If you are not Buddhist, you do not belong to Burma." The 
authorities, they say that, the military junta.
 Q: Did the members of your church have to give money to the 
authorities?
 A: Of course. To the church members who have some money, a little bit 
rich people, they used to demand, [the authorities] will mention some 
case like they are repairing the bridge or the road side, "so you put in 
some money." All the festivals, especially for the water festival and 
others, they would just go, maybe a group of people would collect the 
money. They use the word "donate."  If you do not give it, you will be 
sent to work, like farming or something. They won't come, the military 
directly, they will appoint some persons to come and collect it. It's 
happening even now, and beforehand.
 Q: Did the people in Myitkyina have to work for the army?
 A: Especially for the porters, carrying all those when they're 
traveling. And to prepare their army posts. They force the people to 
dig, to bring the bamboo and wood. Compulsory, each house one person 
should come. That work should be done.
 Q: Did you or your family have to do work for them?
 A: Of course, always. All the people are working. Within this day or 
hour, you have to finish all the labor. You don't send the children, the 
adults should come, so you can finish. They don't care about who is not 
well or something. I myself faced that, when I was coming back from the 
Gospel tour, [walking from Chinese border] there's one military post, so 
when we arrived there, they just stopped us. Including me we were seven 
persons that day, in September 1998. The officer of the post, he said 
"you just go and get ten bamboo, each one. Don't ask 'where's a knife,' 
'where's the bamboo,' 'how to get,' 'how to carry,' 'where's the bullock 
cart.' You don't ask anything. Just I need each one, ten bamboo, go and 
carry and bring it here, just that. Go." He said like this. It was on 
Sunday. I'm a pastor, so I didn't do anything. I just went and sat there 
under the orange tree, I had one or two oranges, while the six persons 
were cutting the bamboo. I also gave them the oranges. When we came 
back, all six persons carried the bamboo, because on Sunday I shouldn't 
do anything, especially for me, as I usually preach on Sunday. But the 
official didn't ask me anything. 
 Q: In Myitkyina, were there drug or alcohol problems?
 A: Number 4 [heroin] narcotic, the white opium, that is popular in our 
place, they are using that one continuously. As long as my knowledge is 
concerned, all the military officers, the highest officials, they are 
the base of that opium, because they order people to do. Even, I was the 
pastor in Hpakant, jade area, the very restricted area, and the opium 
they just carried with trucks, big trucks. Plenty of those things. They 
will just sit one of the officials at the head of their cars, so no one 
can question it. As long as you are giving money, you can do whatever 
you like. There is no law in Burma. Only money. What the Burmese 
military want, they do. There is no law. 
 Q: When were you in Hpakant?
 A: '88 to 2000. '94 to '96 I was in Myitkyina, then I was asked to be a 
pastor in Hpakant. Then they called me back to the Bible College. Then I 
was newly ordained, and then back to Hpakant. 
 Q: What was the situation of the workers at Hpakant?
 A: In Hpakant, now everybody, meaning those who have the money, they 
own companies, so they will just apply to the government, they will give 
maybe 100,000 of money, so they will get permission. And another person 
will give 2 million, and they will again give permit. Within a year, the 
person who gives more money, they will just give permit. They are just 
raising money, so the most highest amount, again and again they will 
give like that. There are two kinds of laborers. Some, there's like a 
salary, per month maybe 10,000 or something. For others, when the jade 
comes, maybe one million, so the boss will get half and laborers, half. 
Maybe ten persons laboring there, so the boss will be the one, the boss 
will be there providing all the food and all the tools and things, when 
the jade is gotten, the boss will get half and then his labor camp, they 
will share.
 Q: About how many people are working around the Hpakant mines?
 A: I'm not sure. Many. A lot. They come from the whole of Burma. 
Several places. All kinds of people. Now especially even from China. The 
Chinese, even if they don't speak Burmese or Kachin, they will come in 
because they give the money when they pass through the [customs] gate. 
 Q: Has it changed since when you were first there?
 A: Oh yeah, now it is changing. Up to '93, there was a lot of people, 
because people from outside cannot come in. And also there were not that 
much machines. But by this time, as a company, they will work with 
machines like a backhoe, and bulldozers, so many, many machines. And the 
[bosses] will come directly and they will take away, so all the labor 
will be not as much as before. Less people.
 Q: Has the environment in that area changed since you started?
 A: Yeah, because always digging the mountains, the hill areas, they 
will just dig down, the mountains will become flat, the way of streams 
will change, whatever they want. Supposing the stream is going like 
this, so they want to dig here, they will just [divert] it to another 
way. 
 Q: In Hpakant is there a narcotics problem?
 A: Yeah, most popular in Hpakant. All kinds of people, anybody. 
 Q: How do they use it?
 A: Injection. Smoking [opium] is not popular. The "ya ma" -- the 
tablet, that you burn it and breathe it in, that is the most popular 
now. The number 4, they just get injection. Smoking [opium] is a long 
time back. 
 Q: Do they have their own needles for injection?
 A: I suppose that they have their own. And also there is maybe some 
center for having that injection, shop, business center.
 Q: Have you heard anything about HIV/AIDS in the Hpakant area?
 A: Yeah, that is very [prevalent], even in Myitkyina or Hpakant. I have 
had many experiences to care for that kind of sickness. We can't do 
anything for those who are suffering from the AIDS, we just encourage 
and pray for them. 
 Q: What is the health care in Hpakant like?
 A: Of course they have hospital, clinics, many. But you have to pay 
much amount. If you pay in Myitkyina maybe 100, [in Hpakant] it will be 
300. Even in the government hospital, it's the same as the outside 
clinic, you have to pay money there also. If you don't pay money, you 
cannot be cured. You cannot have even one injection of penicillin. By 
this time, I'm really surprised that even in the hospital in Myitkyina 
and also Hpakant, you have to pay 15 kyat to use the toilet. Even if you 
go to throw away the urine [bedpan] in that place, you have to pay 15 
kyat.
 Q: Are there prostitution or gambling problems in Hpakant?
 A: Yeah. The police will come, and if they give money, the police will 
go away. So they can do as they like. As long as they are providing 
money, they can do whatever prostitutions or narcotics.
 Q: Where do the prostitutes in Hpakant come from?
 A: I suppose that most of them come from several places in Burma.
 Q: In Hpakant, is the economic situation getting better or not?
 A: I think the economic level is going down, because there are not as 
many people [working] as before. So everything, I think is going down. 
Unemployment and all the machines, and also they don't get anymore the 
precious [jade stones] like before.
 Q: In Hpakant, were there foreigners besides those from China?
 A: I didn't see Westerners, but most of the bosses were Chinese, Hong 
Kong. If they don't know how to speak, it doesn't matter, they will just 
sit down and there will be a translator, something like that, and then 
they can order what they want, and then they just go back, that's all. 
 Q: Anything else regarding religious issues?
 A: Before, we were free, how to build the church, whatever the design, 
we could build it. Now they say, "you cannot build it in a cross design, 
the chapel." You cannot build anything about religion, you cannot preach 
about your freedom. The Gospel is to make everybody free, so they don't 
like the Gospel. That is the thing we are facing now. We don't have the 
chance to go out and study, that means that they just don't want us 
increasing in the knowledge of the Bible.

8. T. Hkun Li Seng
Male, age 32. From: Lashio, Shan State. Occupation: Sergeant in Kachin 
Independence Army. Education: 10th standard. Ethnicity: Kachin. 
Religion: Baptist. Left Burma: November 2000.
 Q: Why did you decide to leave Burma?
 A: Because of my involvement in the political movement, I couldn't stay 
any longer in Burma. I was in danger at the hands of the military.
 Q: When did you join the KIA?
 A: 1989.
 Q: What were you doing at that time?
 A: After I finished 10th standard, I went to the Hpakant jade mine 
area. When I was working there, the KIA [conscripted] me to join the KIA 
forces.
 Q: Where were you stationed with the KIA?
 A: I started in the 6th Battalion in Hpakant area for two years, then I 
was transferred to Headquarters, Pajau area. From '92 to '99 I was in 
Pajau {General Headquarters of the KIO/KIA]. I was one of the staffers 
in the regional civil office under the KIO [Kachin Independence 
Organization] in Hpakant. Then I moved to Headquarters and worked for 
the Central Committee [of KIO]. Then I was transferred to the 
Construction Department. 
 Q: Before the ceasefire, were you in combat?
 A: No.
 Q: Could you compare before and after the ceasefire?
 A: Before the ceasefire, all the servicemen in the KIO had a kind of 
unity and straight mentality to fight against the military government 
for our own homeland. But since the ceasefire all those traits have kind 
of melted and we became weak, not just physically but also mentally and 
there was lots of disappointment and unhappiness. Most of us disagreed 
with the ceasefire. Because there's no benefit or advantage for the 
ordinary soldiers and the people. 
 Q: Economically were there changes after the ceasefire for the 
soldiers?
 A: Before the ceasefire, the situation was tough for the ordinary 
soldiers, especially those soldiers in combat, sometimes they had to 
[stretch] three days' rations for five days, making soup. But since the 
ceasefire, the life of the ordinary soldier becomes slightly better.
 Q: Did the KIO economic situation change after the ceasefire?
 A: In the past, before the ceasefire, KIA or KIO had their own 
positions and whatever decisions they had to make, they made by 
themselves, and they didn't need to ask anybody about the trading. But 
since after the ceasefire, it might seem that the economy of the KIO may 
be slightly better, but in fact, whatever they want to do, they need to 
ask the Burmese generals for the permission. In political ways, it is 
more restricted than before. But I don't know deeply about the economy 
of the organization.
 Q: In 1998-99, were there Burmese government/army people coming to 
Pajau?
 A: Yes. And General Secretary Khin Nyunt was in Pajau, December 31, 
1997. It wasn't a meeting, just to have a kind of dinner, something like 
that. I'm not sure what they talked about. He came by two Husky 
helicopters.
 Q: What was the situation in Laiza [Kachin/China border-trade town 
south of Pajau] like in 1998-99?
 A: You have to bribe the [Burma government] military officers; even the 
KIO or KIA as a group, they have to bribe the military authorities, if 
you do that, you might have a better chance of trading in this area. 
Doing that kind of thing is maybe slightly better than before, if you 
can bribe them. 
 Q: Would you call Laiza a KIO area or is it a Burmese government 
administered area?
 A: KIO controlled area. There's no Burmese administrators in Laiza, but 
the Burmese gate, their administration office, is about nine miles away 
from Laiza, at a place called Laiz Jaya. If you want to go to the KIA 
Laiza area, you have to go through Laiz Jaya. There is a junction when 
you come from Myitkyina or Bhamo, there is a military post there. 
 Q: In '98-'99 was there still much logging in the Laiza area, much wood 
going to through to China?
 A: There's still a few smuggling and logging of trees, but not legally 
now. In the past, it was legal doing that logging business. Lots of 
woodlands became empty, almost no more [trees]. 
 Q: Who made it illegal?
 A: The [Burmese] military government. If you have a good relationship 
with the generals, the military government, it's still legal. But if you 
don't have, it's illegal. And from the KIO side, it's the same as the 
Burmese. If they get a kind of tax, then they issue the permission to 
the trader. 
 Q: Has the KIO's opium-growing suppression program situation changed in 
recent years?
 A: The KIO still suppresses planting the opium. Sometimes people from 
China came and planted opium on the Burma side, but when the KIO found 
out they made them go away, and a heavy fine, and almost death penalty. 
 Q: Did the government troops change their positions closer to or 
farther from Pajau after the ceasefire?
 A: Much closer. You can even see them. You are not able to see the 
soldiers or the men working, but you can see their place, their 
buildings. It's only about two miles away from the KIO Headquarters. 
 Q: How did that happen?
 A: After the ceasefire, the Burmese troops made their way closer to the 
KIA camps, not just at Pajau, as much as possible. Nobody stopped them.
 Q: What did you hear about the gorvernment troops' relations with the 
local people in those former KIA areas?
 A: After the military "Tatmadaw" [government forces] arrived in the 
area, they made those local people abandon their homeland, their 
villages, and relocated them to where the place is farther than the KIA 
area. To make it so they are not able to contact with the KIA or to help 
the KIA. Further into the Burma side area, further away from the KIA 
controlled area. 
 Q: Did those people have to work for the government army?
 A: Yes. Almost every day or every week, they have to work for the 
military, for doing all sorts of things for those soldiers, and 
sometimes they need to build fencing for the military camp, then all the 
villagers are [told] to do that. They had mostly been under KIA control 
in the past, before the ceasefire, but afterwards, the Burmese soldiers 
they just sort of made their way to drive out the KIO or KIA                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
soldiers further away. In the past, those local people, Kachins, were 
made to be porters. Now there's no portering, but still they need to 
work for the military. Every village, one person or two persons have to 
be on standby for the military outposts. 
 Q: Was the KIO or KIA telling civilians to do work for them at all?       
 A: There was no forced by KIA or KIO, but if they want to work, the KIA 
paid for them. Like a job, they'd get paid.
 Q: What was the relation between the KIO and KDA [ceasefired faction, 
Kachin Defense Army]?
 A: Now the Kachin revolution groups like KDA, and NDAK [New Democratic 
Army, Kachin] and KIA and K3, they are trying again to be one group. In 
the past three years they had several meetings, but they are still 
separate so far.
 Q: What about relations with other ceasefire groups, like the Wa and 
Kokang and some Shan factions?
 A: Some of the Shan representatives, SSPP [Shan States Progress Party] 
had an office in the KIA Headquarters. They [KIA] don't have much 
relationship with the Kokang and Wa, but I'm not sure. As far as I know, 
there's no kind of good relationship with them.
 Q: What is your opinion about the change in leadership that happened in 
Pajau recently?
 A: What I believe is, under the leadership of [Brig. Gen.] Tu Jai, the 
organization will be better. Even though in the past it seemed that 
[Gen.] Zau Mai was the leader, [Tu Jai] was the leader, the one who put 
all the soldiers together, put the organization together. The real 
leader was Tu Jai. For the KIA soldiers. So I believe Tu Jai will be 
better than Zau Mai.
 Q: When you were at Hpakant, what were the conditions for the jade 
miners?
 A: In the past, if you paid tax to the KIO, you can have a jade mine or 
trade in the Hpakant area. It didn't matter who you were or where you 
were from. But mostly it was the Kachin people. So they could have their 
jade mine whenever or wherever they wanted, if that place did not belong 
to anybody. They had a chance... But since the ceasefire, the government 
announced for a kind of company. After that, most of the local 
businesses have lost their jade mines. In the past, between the worker 
and the owner, the boss, if you get jade, you'd have half and half split 
[of profits] but now it's become a kind of salary. That means no more 
workers have a chance of becoming rich men. They will stay the same. 
People who have the money will have more money, but people who are poor 
will stay the same. So the conditions become worse than before.
 Q: Why did you decide to leave Pajau and then Burma?
 A: I got married in Pajau, so I have a family, and I had been serving 
in the KIO for ten years, so I asked for a discharge. I was given an A-
list discharge. Whenever they need me, I must be ready to come back and 
serve the KIO. B-list means if your health condition is not good, they 
give you the discharge. C-list means they dismiss you. I went back to 
Lashio through the China border. Before I was discharged I was asked to 
contact the [KIA] 4th Brigade in the Shan State area. So I contacted the 
4th Brigade of the KIA and they asked me to provide for them the 
clothing and other supplies, so I helped them collect that, and I hired 
the transportation, arranging to get that to the 4th Brigade. The first 
time I could make it, but the second time my friend was arrested and the 
cargo was confiscated. And they also followed me. That's why I left 
Lashio. They came to arrest me at my house. But they didn't catch me... 

9. Sinlyu Bawk Htun    
Male, age 36. From: Myitkyina, Kachin State. Occupation: Lieutenant in 
Kachin Independence Army. Education: final year, Rangoon University. 
Ethnicity: Kachin. Religion: Baptist. Left Burma: November 2000.
 Q: Why did you leave Burma?
 A: Even though there was a ceasefire, after I left the KIA, I was 
arrested and put in prison. I left the KIA in 1996, and once I left the 
KIA I was arrested and sentenced to three years, but I didn't have to 
serve for three years. But even though I was released I had to report to 
the MI almost every week. Whatever move I made, they always followed me. 
Every week or every month, they called me for interrogation. I was 
closely monitored by the MI, that's why I no longer wanted to live in 
Burma. 
 Q: Was that in Myitkyina that you had to report to the MI?
 A: Yes, because I had to report to the MI [there] I was not allowed to 
go to anywhere else.
 Q: What work were you doing for the KIO after '96?
 A: I was directly controlled by the [KIO] Headquarters. Mainly my job 
was to monitor smuggling of illegal Chinese people. And to [keep track 
of] trading problems for the KIO. I was an intelligence person for the 
KIO. The Chinese businessmen who had a very good relation with the 
[Burmese government] generals, they bring those Chinese people from 
China, make them work in Hpakant. I had to inform that they're supposed 
to go and catch them. I worked individually. Even though we arrested 
those Chinese illegal people, we didn't make any harm to those people. 
Because we didn't have power in the Myitkyina area, as it is a Burmese 
military controlled area. When we arrested them, we'd just ask them, 
"where do you live" or "where do you belong to" and just check them 
calmly and then just send them away to where those people belong to. 
 Q: Before the ceasefire time, where were you stationed?
 A: 3rd Battalion [north of Pajau, due east of Myitkyina].  
 Q: Just before the ceasefire, in the 3rd Battalion area, was there 
fighting with the government troops at that time?
 A: Always fighting.    
 Q: What was the situation at the time regarding your weapons, 
ammunition, supplies?
 A: There was always lack of rations. Even though they said "this is for 
three days," sometimes we had to live on it for a week, or maybe more. 
Always a ration shortage there, and concerning the weapons, the arms, 
even though there was a war, we could not shoot whenever we wanted. So 
we had to be very careful with our shooting. 
 Q: After the ceasefire, how did the situation change?
 A: What I noticed is that we had no furthering of the KIO or KIA or 
local people. But the Burmese troops made their way closer to the KIA 
place, and the life of the local people, the native people, became 
harder and harder for the living. So it's become worse than before. 
Since the Burmese troops made their way closer to the KIA troops, the 
local people -- officially they make more freedom, but whatever those 
people want to do, they have to get permission from the military 
authorities. There are so many restrictions and repressions, so the 
local people cannot do whatever they want, or whatever they used to do. 
So even though they said, "now is free" during the ceasefire, so the 
life of the local people becomes harder because they need to go through 
the [local] military authorities whatever they do.
 Q: Did it affect their religious practice at all?
 A: Yes, especially in those remote areas, the religious repression's 
going on, worse than before. As well as in the city, but mainly in the 
remote rural areas. 
 Q: What about [government] troops asking people to work for them, was 
that happening around the 3rd Brigade area?
 A: Wherever there's a Burmese troop, a Burmese military outpost, the 
local people of that area will be forced to work for them. Especially in 
the remote areas, rural areas, way far away from the city. 
 Q: Was there still any logging going on there?
 A: Up to '96-'97, there was lots and lots of logging and tree-cutting. 
But after '97, the amount of logging and tree-cutting was reduced, due 
to the availability of the trees. No more trees! Especially in the KIA 
area. Because the Burmese troops made the traders cut the trees in the 
KIA area, but there's some more left in their own area. If there's a KIA 
base, then the military government send the businessmen to that KIA 
area, and allow them to cut the tree in the KIA area, so there's no more 
trees. 
 Q: Were there arrangements for logging with the KIO?
 A: Yes, there's some arrangements, but not between the KIO and the 
government. If a person wants to do logging business, they have to get 
permission from the [Burmese] military government as well as the KIO. 
But the KIO do not give permission to everyone, they just decide who 
should be the one to do that. But the Burmese government give permission 
to almost everyone who can afford to give them the money.
 Q: Who would do the work of actually cutting the wood?
 A: All of the workers are Chinese.
 Q: About the KIO opium-growing ban, after the ceasefire, did that 
change at all?
 A: There was no opium growing, and no trading.
 Q: What about in the Burmese government-controlled areas that used to 
be KIO?
 A: The was no opium planting in Kachin State. If a person is planting 
it in Kachin State, he will be given death penalty by KIO. That is under 
KIO controlled area. But under the MDA controlled area, there might be 
some opium planting, even in Kachin State.
 Q: Were you aware of any operations after the ceasefire period where 
foreign companies came in to bring out minerals besides the jade?
 A: Most of the businessmen who are allowed to do mining and logging 
business in the Kachin State are Chinese people. The advantage is for 
the Chinese people, not the local people. The local people might get the 
temporary job or something like that, but in reality, they are not the 
ones who get the advantage. So, since they [Chinese] are allowed to do 
mineral mining business freely, that's why there's lots of the local 
resources being taken away. So it's not good for the country or the 
people of the Kachin State. Especially gold and aluminum and the other 
natural resource kinds of things are being taken away, including the 
jade.
 Q: How did civilians in Myitkyina feel about the KIO?    
 A: Most people see the ceasefire as no good for them. Before, the 
Kachin people, even in the town, believed in KIO. That [the KIO] can 
give to the Kachin people and they can take the Kachin people out of the 
Burmese control. And they will be the ones who lead the nation. But 
since after the ceasefire, especially late 90's, '97-'98, they don't 
trust the KIO anymore. Even among the KIO, there's no trusting the KIO 
leaders. When I first entered the 3rd Battalion, there was over 800 
soldiers. But when I left, there was less than 300. Most people left, 
because they don't trust their leaders anymore. They had no belief in 
the KIO anymore. People cannot but criticize the KIO leadership.
 Q: What do you think of the recent change in KIO leadership?
 A: I believe that the change needed to be done a long time ago. But 
there was no one that could lead, there was no one better than [Gen.] 
Zau Mai. There was no change in leader. But it should have been done a 
long time ago. I believe that Zau Mai wasn't a good leader. What I 
believe about [Brig. Gen.] Tu Jai is, he is a good leader. And he should 
have replace that position since a long time ago. Mostly the KIA 
servicemen respect him, and he is a good leader. But because under Zau 
Mai's leadership, many of the servicemen were killed by the Burmese 
soldiers -- or by Zau Mai, executed -- that's why there's not many good 
people left. But under the Tu Jai leadership, I believe the organization 
will be better. The people will be more involved in the organization.
 Q: What was your own situation just before you left Burma?
 A: One of my closest colleagues was arrested -- I didn't even know if 
he was arrested or killed, he just disappeared. And like my closest 
friend, many of the KIA servicemen who were discharged from the KIO had 
been killed by the Burmese soldiers. I had to make the weekly reports to 
the MI. If I didn't those people would come to my house and I'd be 
interrogated, arrested, tortured. My life was no longer safe in Burma. 
If I had stayed in Burma I don't know if I would be alive up to today or 
not. I could not even go back to the 3rd Brigade area, because most of 
the leaders there had a good relationship with the Burmese generals, so 
I could be sent back at any time, anywhere, so there was no safe place 
for me anymore. 
 Q: Did they make any trouble for your family as well as yourself, in 
Myitkyina?
 A: Yes. My brother was killed in July last year. Because they wanted 
me, but they couldn't do it to me, so they did it to my brother. My 
elder brother.

10. "Mr. Green"
Male. From: Chin State. Occupation: training officer for an NGO. 
Education: BA, Mandalay University. Ethnicity: Chin. Religion: Baptist. 
Left Burma: December 2000.
 Q: Why did you decide to leave Burma?
 A: I was afraid I'd be chased by the Burmese military. I was told by my 
uncle that I was going to be arrested by the Burmese military. [because 
he helped to get a list of political prisoners to give to the Red Cross] 
 Q: Had you had problems with the authorities before?
 A: Yes, I did. While I gave the training about the NGO. I showed my 
card from the NGO to the military, but they did not know that card or 
about the NGO, so they arrested me and detained me for one night. They 
got all my speeches with a recorder. That was in June 2000. 
 Q: When did you start working with the NGO?
 A: I joined the NGO from 1999. My friend had told me there was a post 
at the NGO.
 Q: What was your work with the NGO?
 A: The aim of the NGO is the prevention of HIV infection. So we worked 
for the prevention of HIV, awareness of HIV and distribution of 
education about the prevention of HIV.
 Q: How aware of HIV/AIDS were the people in the area?
 A: In the town, we could teach the people and the people know about 
HIV. But it is not easy to travel around the remote areas, so the 
villagers did not know about HIV. 
 Q: How were people becoming infected by HIV?
 A: It is hard to find out the mode of transmission in that area, 
because the government did not do any research about HIV infection. They 
want to cover all things up. So it's hard to find which mode of 
transmission is the worst thing. The government always denies about HIV, 
so it's very hard to find out the actual and the real situation in that 
region.
 Q: What materials did you have in your program, and what language were 
they in?
 A: Posters and flyers in Burmese and Chin. We didn't have enough for 
each and every person, but to some extent we can do. Because of the 
limitations of the facilities we had not enough funds.
 Q: Did you have any idea of what percentage of infection was happening 
in that area?
 A: It is hard to find the actual facts in the country, because the 
government wants to deny HIV infection. According to my own research, in 
one clinic in Kalemyo, I reviewed the blood tests, and 8 to 9 percent of 
those blood tests showed positive for HIV. That percent is of people who 
they think may have the HIV infection, the high risk group. In the Kale 
Hospital, the percentage was lower than that percentage.
 Q: What kind of treatment could people get if they were diagnosed with 
HIV or if it had progressed to AIDS?
 A: In that place, when people know that a person is infected with 
HIV/AIDS disease, the persons around that patient are afraid of him, of 
the threat of that disease, and they don't want to take care of the 
patient. Even in the hospital and the clinic, they don't want to take 
care of that HIV patient. The patients didn't want to stay anymore in 
the hospital, because they got depression, because they were outcast by 
society. So the patients leave the hospital and stay at home and the 
patients' parents take care of them.
 Q: Do people advertise medicines that will cure HIV/AIDS?
 A: No.
 Q: Are there people who are not real doctors who give injections in the 
villages?
 A: Yes, a lot of the illegal ones. The villagers told me about it. One 
person, previously he worked in mining, some other place in Burma, and 
later on he went to Malaysia and worked, and he came back to that area 
[Chin State] and he was tested HIV positive. He was tested in Rangoon. 
And he went back to his native village near to Kale. The people in that 
village thought that HIV positive is the AIDS disease. He was treated by 
a person who practices illegally, and he gave some IV [drip] line with 
some glucose, some vitamins and other things to that patient. The 
patient is so weak, he cannot bear that IV line, and half of the bottle 
was left. They don't want to discard the remaining [IV solution] so the 
father of that patient went to continue that IV line, because it is good 
for that person, it has a lot of vitamins. So the person who practices 
illegally, he made the IV line to the father of that patient. And later 
on, the patient died. After that, then the father also died, because of 
the infection.
 Q: In the hospital and clinics, is the equipment clean?
 A: In some places, they use disposable syringes. But in some places 
they cannot use the disposable syringes, they just flush the syringes 
and other needles with hot water for one time. Just one time. The hot 
water that they use to flush the needles and the syringes, they use that 
same hot water to do that again.
 Q: Did you notice the rate of tuberculosis infection?
 A: I was not familiar with that.
 Q: Were people using narcotics by injection?
 A: Around the Kale area, Tamu border area, I found a lot of narcotic 
abuse in that area. In that area they used the IV method, they got that 
habit from the people in mining areas, where they dig for the jade.
 Q: What were the conditions for the workers in the mining areas?
 A: I went to Maishu in 1994 and 1995 and Mogok in early 2000. And the 
conditions of the workers are very poor. Most of the time they didn't 
find any stones or any valuable things so they have no money. They got 
depression because they didn't get anything from that mine, sometimes 
and to replace their depression they use the narcotics. Some people. The 
heroin is sold by somebody, and they can buy it easily, they can buy it 
freely. And the syringe and other things, they can buy it easily. It's 
available easily. They can inject it, the shot they can give by 
themselves or to each other, sharing.
 Q: Do you know about mining in the Chin State in an area called Mwe 
Thaung at all?
 A: I have heard the name of Mwe Thaung, before, several times, but I 
don't know the work there. It's near to Kalemyo.
 Q: Were you visiting the mining areas for AIDS education?
 A: I visited to Maishu mining area because I wanted to know the 
conditions for my own personal interest, and Mogok is for my NGO job. 
The trip there was not very successful. The mission of the trip was to 
distribute the condoms to the workers of the mining and to give the 
health education for the workers of the mines. But that trip was not 
very successful because of the people in that area were very busy with 
their work and they couldn't take the time to hear that speech on 
prevention of HIV. 
 Q: Had the availability and affordability of condoms changed?
 A: The NGO sold the condoms to the public at very cheap price. After 
that service, the condoms were more easily available than before. They 
can get them easily in the marketplace and anywhere around that area.
 Q: How did you get information, news?
 A: The main way we heard information is through the broadcasting 
services of foreign countries like the VOA, BBC and RFA, Radio Free 
Asia. And other democratic broadcasting services. The newspaper that's 
issued by the government in Burma, we're not interested about, because 
we couldn't get any information about politics from that newspaper. We 
rely on only the foreign broadcasting service.
 Q: Did your office have a computer, fax, international telephone?
 A: They had one computer for the office work, and one telephone for 
local use only. They had no [internet access]. 
 Q: Tell about any Chin cultural problems...
 A: They want to change our Chin people and other minorities to become 
Burman, by the government, all the time. Since the Burma Socialist 
Program Party time, the way they want is "one nation, one race, one 
religion, one country." They use this method in this time by the 
military more than before. Even in our Chin State, our people cannot 
learn Chin language in the school at this time. The Chin language is not 
examined in the primary level. Even if they taught it in the school they 
didn't cover it in the exams. The Chin language is not included on  the 
schedule for the students. They meet only once a week [for Chin language 
study], only when they have extra time. In Burma, each and every state 
and division has the college and university. In the Chin State we have 
none up 'til now.
 Q: Can you buy publications in the Chin language?
 A: Only some books that are released by religious permission, we can 
get a small number of. Other magazines and books, we cannot get it. 
Years ago, to teach the ABC alphabet in the Chin language, we used, "A 
for Aung San" and "B for Bible" but the military doesn't allow to 
publish that poem anymore. Because of the restriction of the military, 
except for the books issued by the church and the mission, there's no 
other books [in Chin] available. There's a lot of restrictions about 
cultural things, about shows, even in the ceremonies, we have to get the 
permits before. Because of all the restrictions, the cultural shows are 
less than before. In the country, there's a Ministry of Religious 
Affairs. In the Ministry, there's a Department of Religion. In that 
department there's only a branch for Buddhism. No other religions. The 
government opened the school for the "Hill Regions" but in that school 
they teach only the Buddhism. For that school, the teacher, the 
headmaster, must be a Buddhist. After they implemented that project, 
before that my friend was principal of the school, but after that policy 
my friend was shifted because they didn't want a Christian to be 
principal of that school. 
  So it is clear that they want our Chin people to change to Buddhism 
and be made Burman. In the schools in the Chin State, they forced the 
students to pay homage whenever the elders come in [with a "Buddhist" 
gesture], and say the Buddhist words. The Burmese soldiers, whenever 
they went in the Chin villages, they arrest people and they persecute 
people whenever they want to, anywhere in the Chin State. The military 
check each and every household in the town, with their full equipment, 
about the guests. Even in my house, my sister in law was back from 
Rangoon because of a terminal stage illness. And some relatives and 
friends came to the house to stay with the patient to comfort her. But 
the military came to the house with their uniforms and didn't listen to 
them, and the military threatened them and treated them rudely. 
  Whenever they went in the town or the village, the Burmese military 
opened fire in the air or somewhere, every night to alarm the people or 
to threaten the people. So the people, the Chins, in their heart, they 
have in their minds, fear and anxiety about the uniformed people who 
don't speak the Chin language. Most of the people have anxiety even when 
they hear the footstep or song of the soldiers, or bark of the dogs. 
  In every [government] department, the head of the department is a 
Burman. Most of the Chin people don't speak Burmese, so they are 
scolded. So they are afraid to go to the departments anymore. Even the 
small number of Chin people who are educated are shifted far away from 
the Chin State, so we don't have our Chin people to rely on. 
  I was in Thantlang and saw when the military government destroyed the 
crosses that were erected to mark the Centenary of the Christian 
missions in the Chin State, 1999 January. At that time, the crosses 
erected on the hill were destroyed by the Burmese military and the 
pastors in Thantlang town were arrested by the Burmese military. That's 
why I and other people gathered to pray in the church for the release of 
the pastor. Like we were making a demonstration. So the Chairman of the 
Chin State [military government] Col. Than Maung, came to Thantlang and 
ordered us to get out from the church. He didn't step down from his car. 
We stood out in front of the church. He said, "don't worship in the 
church and don't make any prayer meeting anywhere. But what you need to 
do is work in the road for the construction." The Burmese soldiers and 
police along with him forced us to scatter out. And only the pastor and 
the elders of the church to follow him. He told them that, "you are 
making the anti-government [protest]" and he was going to punish them 
severely. But they said they were praying in the church to make peace in 
the region. That's why later on he released them. 
  One of the female pastors was warned by that colonel that she spoke to 
the public about anti-government, so he was going to punish her very 
severely. And he told all of us not to do this kind of things in the 
future. Otherwise he would give us very serious punishment. Imprisonment 
or very serious persecution. And so there's no rights for religion or 
politics at all in Chin State.
 The education system is also very poor, so there's no way to progress 
for education in Chin State. There's not enough facilities, and there's 
not enough teachers. Most of the schools were built by the villages on 
their own. In some cases, the government forces the students to wear a 
[military type] uniform and forces them to shout the anti Aung San Suu 
Kyi slogans. The military government uses that trick.
  When they formed the USDA, they used some students in that association 
too. Most of the time the students are taken by the government to be 
involved in sports and a lot of activities so the students didn't have 
time to study in school. For example, the student festival that was held 
in Haka, the students practiced for the contests in sports for the whole 
year, so the students didn't have time to study their subjects in 
school. But all the students must have examinations that year. Even 
though they learned nothing in school, they passed the exams. 
 Q: In the two or three months just before you left, at the end of 2000, 
was the army asking people to work for it?
 A: Yes, they did, for the plantation of tea in the Chin Hills. They 
forced all the villagers to do the plantation. They forced the villagers 
to plant only tea. The military got the tea seeds from somewhere else, 
and the agriculture department raised the seeds, and the [seedlings] 
they forced them to plant. They forced them to plant it in many areas of 
Chin State. Most of the places were forest areas. They cleared the 
forests and forced them to plant the tea. They started in July and 
August to force them to clear the forests. They were still doing [the 
planting] in October, November.
  I want to tell about the killing of two people during the construction 
of the road from Thantlang to Hriphi and Vuang Tu. The [government 
military] built a new camp in Vuang Tu village, that's situation on the 
boundary between India and Burma. The built the road from Hriphi to 
Vuang Tu. They forced the people to work day and night. They collected 
the people from each and every village around the township. They brought 
the oil for the lights from India, and the explosives to use for 
construction from India, with money they collected from the villagers. 
That evening I was in that village when the one was killed in the road 
construction. March 5, 1999. The villagers dared not to say anything 
about that killing. The dead body was brought by the villagers into the 
village.
  In that road construction, the villagers including the men, women and 
children, worked in that work camp. Right now, the military forces the 
people to serve as sentries to watch over it at night time, until today. 
They forced the villages [each] to collect at least ten people ready in 
position to carry the things of the military whenever they needed. 
  The alcohol was previously not used in Chin State very much, but at 
this time, the government opens to sell the alcohol everywhere, and they 
even force the village headpersons to sell the alcohol to the local 
people. They [government] get the funds from that alcohol and they 
destroy the morals of the young men. 
  Most of the Chins in the town and the students who are Christians are 
forced to collect funds for the Buddhist festivals, and they are forced 
to work in the compounds of the pagodas for cleaning and something like 
that. The government employees are forced to work in the paddy fields to 
grow rice for the government. In Tiddim town, the public water was cut 
off by the military, so the water would be used for the government's tea 
plantations. So most of Tiddim has a shortage of water, and even in the 
township education office they got the water only once a week. That was 
my experience when I held training in Tiddim. In general they are doing 
all the things to destroy the morals and the character of the Chin young 
men and all Chin people. 

11. "Mr. Blue"
Male, age 41. From: Pegu/Rangoon/Pa'an. Occupation: former government 
civilian department employee. Education: 10th standard. Ethnicity: 
Karen. Religion: Christian. Left Burma: December 1999.
 Q: The part of Pa'an you were staying in, was it government controlled, 
or not?
 A: It was known as a "brown area" [contested between government and 
Karen forces].
 Q: Why did you leave your government work and go to the border area?
 A: I left Rangoon in 1988, after the military seized the power. In 
September. Because I got actively involved in the demonstrations. So I 
fled because I was afraid of the military.
 Q: What kind of work were you doing in Pa'an?
 A: Farming. Peas, chilis. 
 Q: Did the farming situation change while you were there?
 A: Sometimes we could not do our work, because of a lot of forced labor 
and a lot of portering. Sometimes they destroyed the farms. My cousin's 
farm was destroyed, the [government] military destroyed his paddy field.
 Q: Did you or your family members have to do work for the military?
 A: I myself did it. Mostly construction. Road construction... After six 
years there I fled into the KNU [Karen National Union] area.
 Q: Could people pay money in order not to do the work for the military?
 A: Yes. The army would ask 5,000 kyat for one time.
 Q: How many people would they ask to work for them?
 A: 200 to 300 at one time, one